3 ms·

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderwort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderwort

paganel 4y ago
Honey is different compared to oranges and tea (presented as examples in that wiki article) because, presumably, the old Chinese populations were also having access to honey and producing it and, as such, they should have had a name for it. On the other hand Europeans didn't have direct access to stuff like oranges and tea until the transport links happen starting with the 16th century.
- peterfirefly 4y ago
  Even the word "name" seems to be a Wanderwort. If true, it would actually not be a fun coincidence that the Japanese word for the name is "namae" (名前). https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-sciences/article/indoeuropean-loanwords-and-exchange-in-bronze-age-central-and-east-asia/91132871EAF737CD98BDFC43C16C761A https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-s... I don't know how much I trust his etymologies for "name" but most of his etymologies for "seven" seem plausible.
- trompetenaccoun 4y ago
  Afaik there isn't evidence of beekeeping in East Asia as early as in other regions. While it may sound unbelievable that cultures haven't always known about bees and honey, people are also regularly surprised by how late certain cultures learned about something as "simple" as the wheel. It all sounds obvious in hindsight. Either way, I'd be cautious and skeptical about all those supposed linguistic links. The honey one might be true, it does sound very enticing, but of course it's always possible it's coincidental.
  - paganel 4y ago
    > Afaik there isn't evidence of beekeeping in East Asia as early as in other regions. Wow, I actually didn't know that, it will probably do well as a separate HN post if anyone finds a good source for it. I actually thought that beekeeping was a thing across most of Eurasia of ancient times. > Either way, I'd be cautious and skeptical about all those supposed linguistic links. I'm in the same boat, especially when talking about peoples and languages so far apart from one another.
    - adrian_b 4y ago
      Eating honey from wild bees was of course widespread in all places where the ancestors of the humans and then the humans found wild bees. On the other hand, the domestication of the bees seems to have happened only in Egypt, a few thousands years ago, and then it has spread from there into Europe and Asia. So it should have reached China after passing through some Indo-Iranian populations.
bradrn 4y ago
My favourite example: https://www.academia.edu/25619010 https://www.academia.edu/25619010, describing a word which ultimately spread from Trans–New Guinea to Latin.

Honey is different compared to oranges and tea (presented as examples in that wiki article) because, presumably, the old Chinese populations were also having access to honey and producing it and, as such, they should have had a name for it. On the other hand Europeans didn't have direct access to stuff like oranges and tea until the transport links happen starting with the 16th century.

peterfirefly 4y ago
Even the word "name" seems to be a Wanderwort. If true, it would actually not be a fun coincidence that the Japanese word for the name is "namae" (名前). https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-sciences/article/indoeuropean-loanwords-and-exchange-in-bronze-age-central-and-east-asia/91132871EAF737CD98BDFC43C16C761A https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-s... I don't know how much I trust his etymologies for "name" but most of his etymologies for "seven" seem plausible.
trompetenaccoun 4y ago
Afaik there isn't evidence of beekeeping in East Asia as early as in other regions. While it may sound unbelievable that cultures haven't always known about bees and honey, people are also regularly surprised by how late certain cultures learned about something as "simple" as the wheel. It all sounds obvious in hindsight. Either way, I'd be cautious and skeptical about all those supposed linguistic links. The honey one might be true, it does sound very enticing, but of course it's always possible it's coincidental.
- paganel 4y ago
  > Afaik there isn't evidence of beekeeping in East Asia as early as in other regions. Wow, I actually didn't know that, it will probably do well as a separate HN post if anyone finds a good source for it. I actually thought that beekeeping was a thing across most of Eurasia of ancient times. > Either way, I'd be cautious and skeptical about all those supposed linguistic links. I'm in the same boat, especially when talking about peoples and languages so far apart from one another.
  - adrian_b 4y ago
    Eating honey from wild bees was of course widespread in all places where the ancestors of the humans and then the humans found wild bees. On the other hand, the domestication of the bees seems to have happened only in Egypt, a few thousands years ago, and then it has spread from there into Europe and Asia. So it should have reached China after passing through some Indo-Iranian populations.

bradrn 4y ago

My favourite example: https://www.academia.edu/25619010 https://www.academia.edu/25619010, describing a word which ultimately spread from Trans–New Guinea to Latin.