4 ms·

>Michaël Peyrot argues that several of the most striking typological peculiarities of Tocharian are rooted in a prolonged contact of Proto-Tocharian with an ear

>Michaël Peyrot argues that several of the most striking typological peculiarities of Tocharian are rooted in a prolonged contact of Proto-Tocharian with an early stage of Proto-Samoyedic in South Siberia >Some modern Chinese words may ultimately derive from a Tocharian or related source, e.g. Old Chinese mjit (蜜; mì) "honey", from Proto-Tocharian ḿət(ə) Wouldn’t be surprised that cause honey in modern Uralic languages are also very similar. Méz in Hungarian, mesi in Estonian.

bayesian_horse 4y ago
Most important rule in linguistics: Follow the honey.
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  ... and to protect the identity of the bear that told you to follow the honey, (while preserving journalistic integrity about not fictionalising sources) never refer to it in print by its proper name, but use an obvious pseudonym, such as "honey-eater"
mokenator 4y ago
Also in Slavic languages mȇd.
- throw_pm23 4y ago
  Also English "mead" for something closely related.
peterfirefly 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderwort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderwort
- paganel 4y ago
  Honey is different compared to oranges and tea (presented as examples in that wiki article) because, presumably, the old Chinese populations were also having access to honey and producing it and, as such, they should have had a name for it. On the other hand Europeans didn't have direct access to stuff like oranges and tea until the transport links happen starting with the 16th century.
  - peterfirefly 4y ago
    Even the word "name" seems to be a Wanderwort. If true, it would actually not be a fun coincidence that the Japanese word for the name is "namae" (名前). https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-sciences/article/indoeuropean-loanwords-and-exchange-in-bronze-age-central-and-east-asia/91132871EAF737CD98BDFC43C16C761A https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-s... I don't know how much I trust his etymologies for "name" but most of his etymologies for "seven" seem plausible.
  - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
    Afaik there isn't evidence of beekeeping in East Asia as early as in other regions. While it may sound unbelievable that cultures haven't always known about bees and honey, people are also regularly surprised by how late certain cultures learned about something as "simple" as the wheel. It all sounds obvious in hindsight. Either way, I'd be cautious and skeptical about all those supposed linguistic links. The honey one might be true, it does sound very enticing, but of course it's always possible it's coincidental.
    - paganel 4y ago
      > Afaik there isn't evidence of beekeeping in East Asia as early as in other regions. Wow, I actually didn't know that, it will probably do well as a separate HN post if anyone finds a good source for it. I actually thought that beekeeping was a thing across most of Eurasia of ancient times. > Either way, I'd be cautious and skeptical about all those supposed linguistic links. I'm in the same boat, especially when talking about peoples and languages so far apart from one another.
- bradrn 4y ago
  My favourite example: https://www.academia.edu/25619010 https://www.academia.edu/25619010, describing a word which ultimately spread from Trans–New Guinea to Latin.
buovjaga 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead#Etymology > The English mead – "fermented honey drink" – derives from the Old English meodu or medu, and Proto-Indo-European language, *médʰu. Its cognates include Old Norse mjǫðr, Proto-Slavic medъ, Middle Dutch mede, and Old High German metu, and the ancient Irish queen Medb, among others. The Chinese word for honey, mì (蜜) was borrowed from the extinct Indo-European Tocharian word mit – also a cognate with the English word mead. Also: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Uralic/mete https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Uralic/m... > Borrowed from Proto-Tocharian *ḿətə, from Proto-Indo-European *médʰu. One of the words found only within the traditional Finno-Ugric group.
captainmuon 4y ago
I read somewhere that Chinese "ma" for horse and English "mare" might be related, originating from a steppe people of horseriders. I find these possible connections from time immemorial really fascinating.
- DonaldFisk 4y ago
  Here? https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=44941 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=44941 In Indoeuropean it's only present in the Germanic and Celtic branches (Protogermanic: marhaz, Protoceltic: markos), but in the Far East, as well as Chinese 馬 (mǎ) there's Mongolian морь, Korean 말 (mal), and Japanese うま (uma). I can't find any Finno-Ugric or Turkic cognates, so it looks like there are two separate clusters.
  - riialist 4y ago
    In Finnish we still use word "mesi", which is a synonym for honey. The word has the same meaning in Finno-ugric and Uralian languages still spoken in Siberia and Volga areas such as Mari and Udmurt - and Hungarian. At least the Finnish etymologic dictionary says it's related to Aryan words, e.g. medhu in Sanskrit. https://kaino.kotus.fi/suomenetymologinensanakirja/?p=qs-article&etym_id=ETYM_1392fa65931ea44df2062a1bf167859e&list_id=1&keyword=mesi&word=mesi https://kaino.kotus.fi/suomenetymologinensanakirja/?p=qs-art...

bayesian_horse 4y ago

Most important rule in linguistics: Follow the honey.

082349872349872 4y ago
... and to protect the identity of the bear that told you to follow the honey, (while preserving journalistic integrity about not fictionalising sources) never refer to it in print by its proper name, but use an obvious pseudonym, such as "honey-eater"

mokenator 4y ago

Also in Slavic languages mȇd.

throw_pm23 4y ago
Also English "mead" for something closely related.

peterfirefly 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderwort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderwort

paganel 4y ago
Honey is different compared to oranges and tea (presented as examples in that wiki article) because, presumably, the old Chinese populations were also having access to honey and producing it and, as such, they should have had a name for it. On the other hand Europeans didn't have direct access to stuff like oranges and tea until the transport links happen starting with the 16th century.
- peterfirefly 4y ago
  Even the word "name" seems to be a Wanderwort. If true, it would actually not be a fun coincidence that the Japanese word for the name is "namae" (名前). https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-sciences/article/indoeuropean-loanwords-and-exchange-in-bronze-age-central-and-east-asia/91132871EAF737CD98BDFC43C16C761A https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-s... I don't know how much I trust his etymologies for "name" but most of his etymologies for "seven" seem plausible.
- trompetenaccoun 4y ago
  Afaik there isn't evidence of beekeeping in East Asia as early as in other regions. While it may sound unbelievable that cultures haven't always known about bees and honey, people are also regularly surprised by how late certain cultures learned about something as "simple" as the wheel. It all sounds obvious in hindsight. Either way, I'd be cautious and skeptical about all those supposed linguistic links. The honey one might be true, it does sound very enticing, but of course it's always possible it's coincidental.
  - paganel 4y ago
    > Afaik there isn't evidence of beekeeping in East Asia as early as in other regions. Wow, I actually didn't know that, it will probably do well as a separate HN post if anyone finds a good source for it. I actually thought that beekeeping was a thing across most of Eurasia of ancient times. > Either way, I'd be cautious and skeptical about all those supposed linguistic links. I'm in the same boat, especially when talking about peoples and languages so far apart from one another.
bradrn 4y ago
My favourite example: https://www.academia.edu/25619010 https://www.academia.edu/25619010, describing a word which ultimately spread from Trans–New Guinea to Latin.

buovjaga 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead#Etymology > The English mead – "fermented honey drink" – derives from the Old English meodu or medu, and Proto-Indo-European language, *médʰu. Its cognates include Old Norse mjǫðr, Proto-Slavic medъ, Middle Dutch mede, and Old High German metu, and the ancient Irish queen Medb, among others. The Chinese word for honey, mì (蜜) was borrowed from the extinct Indo-European Tocharian word mit – also a cognate with the English word mead. Also: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Uralic/mete https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Uralic/m... > Borrowed from Proto-Tocharian *ḿətə, from Proto-Indo-European *médʰu. One of the words found only within the traditional Finno-Ugric group.

captainmuon 4y ago

I read somewhere that Chinese "ma" for horse and English "mare" might be related, originating from a steppe people of horseriders. I find these possible connections from time immemorial really fascinating.

DonaldFisk 4y ago
Here? https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=44941 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=44941 In Indoeuropean it's only present in the Germanic and Celtic branches (Protogermanic: marhaz, Protoceltic: markos), but in the Far East, as well as Chinese 馬 (mǎ) there's Mongolian морь, Korean 말 (mal), and Japanese うま (uma). I can't find any Finno-Ugric or Turkic cognates, so it looks like there are two separate clusters.
- riialist 4y ago
  In Finnish we still use word "mesi", which is a synonym for honey. The word has the same meaning in Finno-ugric and Uralian languages still spoken in Siberia and Volga areas such as Mari and Udmurt - and Hungarian. At least the Finnish etymologic dictionary says it's related to Aryan words, e.g. medhu in Sanskrit. https://kaino.kotus.fi/suomenetymologinensanakirja/?p=qs-article&etym_id=ETYM_1392fa65931ea44df2062a1bf167859e&list_id=1&keyword=mesi&word=mesi https://kaino.kotus.fi/suomenetymologinensanakirja/?p=qs-art...