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Automatic switching between FSD and Autopilot is not any kind of UX problem. There is no reason the driver needs to be aware of it. The driver does not need to

Automatic switching between FSD and Autopilot is not any kind of UX problem. There is no reason the driver needs to be aware of it. The driver does not need to take any action at all. The only difference is the type of road. But which software was in use is relevant here because people are trying to blame this on FSD. Whenever you're on a freeway, Autopilot is used automatically instead of FSD, so FSD had nothing to do with this regardless of whether the car had FSD installed or not. This is the same Autopilot software that has been available and in use for many years.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
When responsible for overseeing a multi-ton vehicle, I like to know how it will behave. Cruise control and lane assist I understand. I need to know which one is in control and how it will behave if they can respond differently.
- modeless 4y ago
  There is no difference in behavior when switching from FSD to Autopilot or vice versa. And there is never any ambiguity about which is active because it is completely determined by road type which you're obviously aware of while driving.
  - TheCleric 4y ago
    Then, other than pedantry, is their a meaningful difference?
    - modeless 4y ago
      Yes, FSD is essentially a complete rewrite of Autopilot which will soon replace it for freeway driving too. Autopilot has been available for many years and FSD is new. This accident could have happened years ago and is not evidence of any issue with the new FSD stuff.
      - Hamuko 4y ago
        But since there's no behavioural difference, it doesn't matter if it's a complete rewrite or not.
        modeless 4y ago
        They currently operate on disjoint sets of roads, so they can only be roughly compared, and in rough comparison they do not behave differently. Of course if operated on the exact same road (which, again, is currently impossible) their actions would not be the same in every detail, just as different humans or even the same human driving the same road multiple times wouldn't. But that doesn't mean that there's necessarily any consistent difference that would enable a driver to use the information of which one is active to improve their predictions of the car's behavior.
        iainmerrick 4y ago
        I guess it matters because a full rewrite is much more likely to have serious bugs.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  I like how my 25-year-old Range Rover has neither of those. Power steering and ABS is all you get. Technically it does have cruise control, but I've never worked out what kind of road conditions it would be useful for and until I replace a 25-year-old dry-rotted vacuum hose under the bonnet it's not going to control a damn thing.
mastercheif 4y ago
This sounds similar to Boeing's reasoning for not documenting the MCAS system on the 737 MAX.
ncallaway 4y ago
> There is no reason the driver needs to be aware of it. If the person operating the vehicle doesn't need to be aware of the difference, then the general public shouldn't need to either when analyzing an accident. It seems baffling to me that we could imagine a scenario where it's less important for the driver of a vehicle to be aware of the difference, than it is for the public when reacting to a news article. I don't think you get to have your cake and eat it. Either there is no relevant distinction, in which case the "well actually" response that "it's not FSD" seems unnecessary, or the distinction is important, in which case it seems problematic that drivers would be confused about it.
- modeless 4y ago
  The difference comes when drawing inferences about the future development of Autopilot/FSD as these articles invariably do. This is completely different than day-to-day usage of the system. If you believe this was a failure of FSD, then maybe it's evidence we should stop the rollout of FSD or whatever. If it's a failure of Autopilot, then it is not evidence about the future behavior of FSD at all. FSD is a complete rewrite of Autopilot and is planned to soon replace it entirely including for freeway driving.
  - watwut 4y ago
    If FSD automatically turns into autopilot on higways and driver is not supposed to know, then it is fault of SFD.
  - ncallaway 4y ago
    > The difference comes when drawing inferences about the future development of Autopilot/FSD as these articles invariably do. I guess I just didn't take that away from this article at all. It seemed like a more general complaint about Level 2 automation using this instance of a crash with FSD/Autopilot as an example. The distinction seems, to me, relatively irrelevant to the main point of the article. A key paragraph for me was this one: > While, yes, Tesla’s system was the particular one that appears to have failed here, and yes, the system is deceptively named in a way that encourages this idiotic behavior, this is not a problem unique to Tesla. It’s not a technical problem. You can’t program your way out of the problem with Level 2; in fact, the better the Level 2 system seems to be, the worse the problem gets. That problem is that human beings are simply no good at monitoring systems that do most of the work of a task and remaining ready to take over that task with minimal to no warning. So, I guess I don't see the point in distinguishing between FSD/Autopilot when the thesis of the article isn't specific to Tesla, but rather applies to Level 2 systems across all cars.
skhr0680 4y ago
I’m not familiar with Teslas but to me the UX problem is that Autopilot and FSD sound like they should mean the same thing

paulryanrogers 4y ago

When responsible for overseeing a multi-ton vehicle, I like to know how it will behave. Cruise control and lane assist I understand. I need to know which one is in control and how it will behave if they can respond differently.

modeless 4y ago
There is no difference in behavior when switching from FSD to Autopilot or vice versa. And there is never any ambiguity about which is active because it is completely determined by road type which you're obviously aware of while driving.
- TheCleric 4y ago
  Then, other than pedantry, is their a meaningful difference?
  - modeless 4y ago
    Yes, FSD is essentially a complete rewrite of Autopilot which will soon replace it for freeway driving too. Autopilot has been available for many years and FSD is new. This accident could have happened years ago and is not evidence of any issue with the new FSD stuff.
    - Hamuko 4y ago
      But since there's no behavioural difference, it doesn't matter if it's a complete rewrite or not.
      - modeless 4y ago
        They currently operate on disjoint sets of roads, so they can only be roughly compared, and in rough comparison they do not behave differently. Of course if operated on the exact same road (which, again, is currently impossible) their actions would not be the same in every detail, just as different humans or even the same human driving the same road multiple times wouldn't. But that doesn't mean that there's necessarily any consistent difference that would enable a driver to use the information of which one is active to improve their predictions of the car's behavior.
      - iainmerrick 4y ago
        I guess it matters because a full rewrite is much more likely to have serious bugs.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
I like how my 25-year-old Range Rover has neither of those. Power steering and ABS is all you get. Technically it does have cruise control, but I've never worked out what kind of road conditions it would be useful for and until I replace a 25-year-old dry-rotted vacuum hose under the bonnet it's not going to control a damn thing.

mastercheif 4y ago

This sounds similar to Boeing's reasoning for not documenting the MCAS system on the 737 MAX.

ncallaway 4y ago

> There is no reason the driver needs to be aware of it. If the person operating the vehicle doesn't need to be aware of the difference, then the general public shouldn't need to either when analyzing an accident. It seems baffling to me that we could imagine a scenario where it's less important for the driver of a vehicle to be aware of the difference, than it is for the public when reacting to a news article. I don't think you get to have your cake and eat it. Either there is no relevant distinction, in which case the "well actually" response that "it's not FSD" seems unnecessary, or the distinction is important, in which case it seems problematic that drivers would be confused about it.

modeless 4y ago
The difference comes when drawing inferences about the future development of Autopilot/FSD as these articles invariably do. This is completely different than day-to-day usage of the system. If you believe this was a failure of FSD, then maybe it's evidence we should stop the rollout of FSD or whatever. If it's a failure of Autopilot, then it is not evidence about the future behavior of FSD at all. FSD is a complete rewrite of Autopilot and is planned to soon replace it entirely including for freeway driving.
- watwut 4y ago
  If FSD automatically turns into autopilot on higways and driver is not supposed to know, then it is fault of SFD.
- ncallaway 4y ago
  > The difference comes when drawing inferences about the future development of Autopilot/FSD as these articles invariably do. I guess I just didn't take that away from this article at all. It seemed like a more general complaint about Level 2 automation using this instance of a crash with FSD/Autopilot as an example. The distinction seems, to me, relatively irrelevant to the main point of the article. A key paragraph for me was this one: > While, yes, Tesla’s system was the particular one that appears to have failed here, and yes, the system is deceptively named in a way that encourages this idiotic behavior, this is not a problem unique to Tesla. It’s not a technical problem. You can’t program your way out of the problem with Level 2; in fact, the better the Level 2 system seems to be, the worse the problem gets. That problem is that human beings are simply no good at monitoring systems that do most of the work of a task and remaining ready to take over that task with minimal to no warning. So, I guess I don't see the point in distinguishing between FSD/Autopilot when the thesis of the article isn't specific to Tesla, but rather applies to Level 2 systems across all cars.

skhr0680 4y ago

I’m not familiar with Teslas but to me the UX problem is that Autopilot and FSD sound like they should mean the same thing