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You are looking at this the wrong way. Europe's problem is not its dependence on Russian energy but but its inability to say no to America and Britain when that

You are looking at this the wrong way. Europe's problem is not its dependence on Russian energy but but its inability to say no to America and Britain when that duo interfere in mainland security matters. Its mind boggling that a country of Germany's size and might can't tell America to fuck off "Ukraine is not going to be in your sphere of influence". The tapped phone call between American diplomats back in 2014 was supposed to expose the outsize American role in Ukraine right before Russia seized Crimea: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

RhodesianHunter 4y ago
That would make total sense had Germany not been making all of the wrong moves and relatively in bed with Russia the entire time, as opposed to the United States' support of Ukraine and anti-corruption movements there. In your imagined scenario everything regarding Ukraine would be worse off, not better.
- chihuahua 4y ago
  I would like to understand why Germany loves Russia so much, despite what's happened over the past year. There was all kinds of funny business with Nordstream, Manuela Schleswig's fishy "foundation", and more. I can understand Schroeder - he's just getting paid by Putin every year. But Scholz? It seems that every month he makes up a different reason why Germany can't properly support Ukraine. A few helmets and kevlar vests and a handful of Gepards without ammunition, but Leopard 2s? God no, we couldn't possibly do that, it might hurt Putin's feelings! It seems he wants to give Ukraine just enough to watch them slowly bleed out. Is it just that Putin is paying off most of the German politicians, and has been doing so for years? I guess they're pretty cheap to buy, and they're completely shameless about it - just look at Schroeder.
  - drran 4y ago
    IMHO, Ukrainians should grab Königsberg for themselves after the end of war and then exchange it for something useful, e.g. exchange it for Transnistria with Moldova, instead of returning Königsberg to Germany.
    - twaw 4y ago
      Yeah, let's ruin our diplomatic relationships with Germany and Moldova, then try to join EU and NATO. Why we need to try exchange Transnistria for Konigsberg in the first place?
      - drran 4y ago
        Russian 14th army may strike from the back to support the main army, so they should be made toothless before the second wave of invasion, but Ukraine cannot attack 14th army without breaking relationships with Moldova, EU, UN, and NATO. However, Ukraine can exchange this problem (Transnistria) for another problem (Königsberg) to negate them both. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_presence_in_Transnistria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_presence_in_T... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasna_ammunition_depot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasna_ammunition_depot
        trasz3 4y ago
        [dead]
    - Hithredin 4y ago
      But Koningsberg is czech!
      - drran 4y ago
        Königsberg was part of Germany when annexed by Soviet Union. I see no page about Königsberg in Czech language at Wikipedia at all. Anyway, Germans were expelled, so Königsberg is populated by Russians now, which makes it similar to Transnistria, Crimea, etc.
        marssaxman 4y ago
        Last October, a petition for the Czech republic to annex the region received over 20k signatures. This led to many jokes: https://www.petice.com/petice_za_vyhlaeni_referenda_o_pipojeni_kaliningradu_k_eske_republice https://www.petice.com/petice_za_vyhlaeni_referenda_o_pipoje...
  - ambrozk 4y ago
    It's organic political opinion. For one thing, Germans feel very real guilt for their invasion of Russia in WW2, and they don't like the idea of aiding in a war against it. For another, the experience of the Cold War was much more traumatic for them than it was for the US, and they're not eager to start a new one.
    - chihuahua 4y ago
      Do the Germans not understand that they also invaded and destroyed Ukraine in WW2?
      - ambrozk 4y ago
        They do. They also understand that there collaborators were Ukrainian nationalists (who were extremely anti-semitic and enthusiastically participated in pogroms) who are increasingly venerated in Ukraine. As an American, I'm able to compartmentalize this, and rationalize that Ukrainians are venerating people like Bandera for their anti-Russian partisanship, not for their anti-Jewish politics. But this is less of an option for Germans, who for very understandable reasons have a greater sensitivity to anti-Semitism than most nations.
        kranke155 4y ago
        The Anti-Semitism stuff is just a propaganda line invented by Vladislav Surkov (Russia’s Goebbels). Like all good propaganda, it contains a kernel of truth that’s expanded and dilated until it becomes nonsense. Believing in generalised Anti-Semitism and Nazism in Ukrainian society is like believing Saddam Hussein funded 9/11. It’s just a mind trick.
        ambrozk 4y ago
        I think everything I wrote is accurate. Bandera was a vicious anti-Semite. Bandera did collaborate with the Nazis. Bandera is venerated in Ukraine (since 2014 and especially since 2022). Maidan was made possible by armed support from neo-nazi political parties. Based on my reading, I do not think that Ukraine is a particularly anti-Semitic place, and I think that they like Bandera mainly because they see him as an anti-Russian fighter. But it's easy for me to understand why Germans are much more uncomfortable with the symbolism that I am.
  - morsch 4y ago
    > A few helmets and kevlar vests and a handful of Gepards without ammunition, but Leopard 2s? German military support is in the same order of magnitude as other countries. Including heavy weapons. Don't bother linking news articles or opinion pieces. Here's an up-to-date primary source: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/data-sets/ukraine-support-tracker-data-17410/ https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/data-sets/ukraine-suppo... It's totally fair to argue that Germany should deliver more stuff or heavier weapons, but the helmets and vests and corruption rhetoric is unwarranted.
    - checkyoursudo 4y ago
      I agree with you, but part of the perception of Germany, including in GP comment, comes from Germany's hesitation to be as vocally supportive of Ukr, and from Germany's hesitation to take the risk on leading the way on supplying MBTs and other heavy weapons. For my entire life, Germany has acted like the leader of Europe, and now they have not either in words or deeds, which has colored the perception of ... not a few people. Germany has provided lots of aid, but they have been so damned shy about it, and never or at least rarely before other nations.
    - chihuahua 4y ago
      Given that Schroeder started working for Nord Stream within weeks of stepping down as Chancellor, later became manager of Nord Stream 2, was paid $350,000 per year as director of the board of Rosneft, and was nominated to the board of directors of Gazprom, is it really unwarranted to point out that he was bought and paid for as Putin's servant?
      - morsch 4y ago
        It's hard to argue with that, but I don't think you can generalise it to all German politicians or even the current government on the whole.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
toberoni 4y ago
Germany has been lacking a coherent security strategy. They neglected the Bundeswehr for decades and in recent years doubled down on their dependency on Russian fossil fuel (one could argue this was a mutual interdependency as German companies were crucial for the Russian arms industry). Apart from the far right/left everyone in Germany (that I know) is thankful for America's support in Eastern Europe. Most of these people had no goodwill towards the US military before this war - mainly due to the shameful campaigns in Afghanistan/Iraq. But they also realized that the German/Western European security 'strategy' regarding Russia was a big failure.
- jdkee 4y ago
  Plus Germany's half-century long anti-nuclear stance does them a disservice.
- rjzzleep 4y ago
  If that is a thing that bothers you, one of the people that made sure that the Bundeswehr never recovers was that corrupt von der Leyen. She was MoD, funnelled a bunch of money to her McKinsey son, and then went on to become the head of European Commission. With someone like that at the helm of the EU, you don't need enemies. The sibling comment mentions Germany's nuclear policy. It's worth noting that Germany at the EU tried to lobby against nuclear to deprive France out of EU support for Green energy. They have an irrational hate for nuclear energy, but it's not limited to nuclear energy. Somehow the once antiwar Green party has become the party of warmongering and coal lobbying. Germany during the Kohl administration shut killed fibre optics infrastructure projects to fight the influence of public TV and promote cable TV. [1] So this is at least 4 decades of ideological mismanagement. I'd say the respect for German infrastructure is the work that has been done after the war up until then. [1] https://netzpolitik.org/2018/danke-helmut-kohl-kabelfernsehen-statt-glasfaserausbau/ https://netzpolitik.org/2018/danke-helmut-kohl-kabelfernsehe...
  - xenonite 4y ago
    In eastern Germany at least, Telekom laid fibers after 1993.
- 4y ago
alexvoda 4y ago
Always the "sphere of influence" crap rhetoric. We all know Russia WANTS a sphere of influence. But why should Russia have a sphere of influence? What is so special about Russia that you believe it deserves such a thing? Russia isn't even able to protect those currently in its sphere of influence (CSTO), as we can see in Armenia. Nukes? The DPRK has nukes. Should the DPRK have a sphere of influence? Should India and Pakistan have their spheres of influence? Should everyone get nukes just to guarantee their own sovereignty? Economy? Pre-war Russia was economically the size of Italy. The ex-Warsaw Pact countries joined NATO of their own initiative precisely to be as far away from Russia as possible. Because being in the Russian sphere of influence means having your people sent to the gulag in Siberia. If the war achieved anything for Russia, it's putting Russia firmly inside Chinas sphere of influence.
- raspberry1337 4y ago
  America has the exact same policy not only in the entire North and South America, but also in the Middle east and elsewhere. I agree that what Russia is doing is morally disastrous but rationally, they are doing exactly what the US and everyone else is doing.
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    'But your honor, I should allowed to do this thing because I saw someone else do it!'
    - raspberry1337 4y ago
      'Sir, you're accusing your neighbour of painting his house red. Your house is red."
      - Eisenstein 4y ago
        Your honor, the fact that my house is red does not make his house not red. My house being red is irrelevant.

RhodesianHunter 4y ago

That would make total sense had Germany not been making all of the wrong moves and relatively in bed with Russia the entire time, as opposed to the United States' support of Ukraine and anti-corruption movements there. In your imagined scenario everything regarding Ukraine would be worse off, not better.

chihuahua 4y ago
I would like to understand why Germany loves Russia so much, despite what's happened over the past year. There was all kinds of funny business with Nordstream, Manuela Schleswig's fishy "foundation", and more. I can understand Schroeder - he's just getting paid by Putin every year. But Scholz? It seems that every month he makes up a different reason why Germany can't properly support Ukraine. A few helmets and kevlar vests and a handful of Gepards without ammunition, but Leopard 2s? God no, we couldn't possibly do that, it might hurt Putin's feelings! It seems he wants to give Ukraine just enough to watch them slowly bleed out. Is it just that Putin is paying off most of the German politicians, and has been doing so for years? I guess they're pretty cheap to buy, and they're completely shameless about it - just look at Schroeder.
- drran 4y ago
  IMHO, Ukrainians should grab Königsberg for themselves after the end of war and then exchange it for something useful, e.g. exchange it for Transnistria with Moldova, instead of returning Königsberg to Germany.
  - twaw 4y ago
    Yeah, let's ruin our diplomatic relationships with Germany and Moldova, then try to join EU and NATO. Why we need to try exchange Transnistria for Konigsberg in the first place?
    - drran 4y ago
      Russian 14th army may strike from the back to support the main army, so they should be made toothless before the second wave of invasion, but Ukraine cannot attack 14th army without breaking relationships with Moldova, EU, UN, and NATO. However, Ukraine can exchange this problem (Transnistria) for another problem (Königsberg) to negate them both. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_presence_in_Transnistria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_presence_in_T... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasna_ammunition_depot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasna_ammunition_depot
      - trasz3 4y ago
        [dead]
  - Hithredin 4y ago
    But Koningsberg is czech!
    - drran 4y ago
      Königsberg was part of Germany when annexed by Soviet Union. I see no page about Königsberg in Czech language at Wikipedia at all. Anyway, Germans were expelled, so Königsberg is populated by Russians now, which makes it similar to Transnistria, Crimea, etc.
      - marssaxman 4y ago
        Last October, a petition for the Czech republic to annex the region received over 20k signatures. This led to many jokes: https://www.petice.com/petice_za_vyhlaeni_referenda_o_pipojeni_kaliningradu_k_eske_republice https://www.petice.com/petice_za_vyhlaeni_referenda_o_pipoje...
- ambrozk 4y ago
  It's organic political opinion. For one thing, Germans feel very real guilt for their invasion of Russia in WW2, and they don't like the idea of aiding in a war against it. For another, the experience of the Cold War was much more traumatic for them than it was for the US, and they're not eager to start a new one.
  - chihuahua 4y ago
    Do the Germans not understand that they also invaded and destroyed Ukraine in WW2?
    - ambrozk 4y ago
      They do. They also understand that there collaborators were Ukrainian nationalists (who were extremely anti-semitic and enthusiastically participated in pogroms) who are increasingly venerated in Ukraine. As an American, I'm able to compartmentalize this, and rationalize that Ukrainians are venerating people like Bandera for their anti-Russian partisanship, not for their anti-Jewish politics. But this is less of an option for Germans, who for very understandable reasons have a greater sensitivity to anti-Semitism than most nations.
      - kranke155 4y ago
        The Anti-Semitism stuff is just a propaganda line invented by Vladislav Surkov (Russia’s Goebbels). Like all good propaganda, it contains a kernel of truth that’s expanded and dilated until it becomes nonsense. Believing in generalised Anti-Semitism and Nazism in Ukrainian society is like believing Saddam Hussein funded 9/11. It’s just a mind trick.
        ambrozk 4y ago
        I think everything I wrote is accurate. Bandera was a vicious anti-Semite. Bandera did collaborate with the Nazis. Bandera is venerated in Ukraine (since 2014 and especially since 2022). Maidan was made possible by armed support from neo-nazi political parties. Based on my reading, I do not think that Ukraine is a particularly anti-Semitic place, and I think that they like Bandera mainly because they see him as an anti-Russian fighter. But it's easy for me to understand why Germans are much more uncomfortable with the symbolism that I am.
- morsch 4y ago
  > A few helmets and kevlar vests and a handful of Gepards without ammunition, but Leopard 2s? German military support is in the same order of magnitude as other countries. Including heavy weapons. Don't bother linking news articles or opinion pieces. Here's an up-to-date primary source: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/data-sets/ukraine-support-tracker-data-17410/ https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/data-sets/ukraine-suppo... It's totally fair to argue that Germany should deliver more stuff or heavier weapons, but the helmets and vests and corruption rhetoric is unwarranted.
  - checkyoursudo 4y ago
    I agree with you, but part of the perception of Germany, including in GP comment, comes from Germany's hesitation to be as vocally supportive of Ukr, and from Germany's hesitation to take the risk on leading the way on supplying MBTs and other heavy weapons. For my entire life, Germany has acted like the leader of Europe, and now they have not either in words or deeds, which has colored the perception of ... not a few people. Germany has provided lots of aid, but they have been so damned shy about it, and never or at least rarely before other nations.
  - chihuahua 4y ago
    Given that Schroeder started working for Nord Stream within weeks of stepping down as Chancellor, later became manager of Nord Stream 2, was paid $350,000 per year as director of the board of Rosneft, and was nominated to the board of directors of Gazprom, is it really unwarranted to point out that he was bought and paid for as Putin's servant?
    - morsch 4y ago
      It's hard to argue with that, but I don't think you can generalise it to all German politicians or even the current government on the whole.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

toberoni 4y ago

Germany has been lacking a coherent security strategy. They neglected the Bundeswehr for decades and in recent years doubled down on their dependency on Russian fossil fuel (one could argue this was a mutual interdependency as German companies were crucial for the Russian arms industry). Apart from the far right/left everyone in Germany (that I know) is thankful for America's support in Eastern Europe. Most of these people had no goodwill towards the US military before this war - mainly due to the shameful campaigns in Afghanistan/Iraq. But they also realized that the German/Western European security 'strategy' regarding Russia was a big failure.

jdkee 4y ago
Plus Germany's half-century long anti-nuclear stance does them a disservice.
rjzzleep 4y ago
If that is a thing that bothers you, one of the people that made sure that the Bundeswehr never recovers was that corrupt von der Leyen. She was MoD, funnelled a bunch of money to her McKinsey son, and then went on to become the head of European Commission. With someone like that at the helm of the EU, you don't need enemies. The sibling comment mentions Germany's nuclear policy. It's worth noting that Germany at the EU tried to lobby against nuclear to deprive France out of EU support for Green energy. They have an irrational hate for nuclear energy, but it's not limited to nuclear energy. Somehow the once antiwar Green party has become the party of warmongering and coal lobbying. Germany during the Kohl administration shut killed fibre optics infrastructure projects to fight the influence of public TV and promote cable TV. [1] So this is at least 4 decades of ideological mismanagement. I'd say the respect for German infrastructure is the work that has been done after the war up until then. [1] https://netzpolitik.org/2018/danke-helmut-kohl-kabelfernsehen-statt-glasfaserausbau/ https://netzpolitik.org/2018/danke-helmut-kohl-kabelfernsehe...
- xenonite 4y ago
  In eastern Germany at least, Telekom laid fibers after 1993.
4y ago

alexvoda 4y ago

Always the "sphere of influence" crap rhetoric. We all know Russia WANTS a sphere of influence. But why should Russia have a sphere of influence? What is so special about Russia that you believe it deserves such a thing? Russia isn't even able to protect those currently in its sphere of influence (CSTO), as we can see in Armenia. Nukes? The DPRK has nukes. Should the DPRK have a sphere of influence? Should India and Pakistan have their spheres of influence? Should everyone get nukes just to guarantee their own sovereignty? Economy? Pre-war Russia was economically the size of Italy. The ex-Warsaw Pact countries joined NATO of their own initiative precisely to be as far away from Russia as possible. Because being in the Russian sphere of influence means having your people sent to the gulag in Siberia. If the war achieved anything for Russia, it's putting Russia firmly inside Chinas sphere of influence.

raspberry1337 4y ago
America has the exact same policy not only in the entire North and South America, but also in the Middle east and elsewhere. I agree that what Russia is doing is morally disastrous but rationally, they are doing exactly what the US and everyone else is doing.
- Eisenstein 4y ago
  'But your honor, I should allowed to do this thing because I saw someone else do it!'
  - raspberry1337 4y ago
    'Sir, you're accusing your neighbour of painting his house red. Your house is red."
    - Eisenstein 4y ago
      Your honor, the fact that my house is red does not make his house not red. My house being red is irrelevant.