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Copilot is the calculator for a new age. In spite of everything my math teacher warned me about, if I am in a situation where I do not have immediate access to

by madrox 4y ago

Copilot is the calculator for a new age. In spite of everything my math teacher warned me about, if I am in a situation where I do not have immediate access to a calculator, I am not in a situation where I need to do quick math. We make determinations all the time about what amount of technology assistance is "ok" and what isn't and it usually correlates to what the educator had access to as a child. That's kind of weak, if you ask me. We need to stop pretending we're educating most people to live in a world that won't have immediate access to technology.

nerdjon 4y ago
I think a calculator is very very different from an AI tool. With a calculator you still had to have enough knowledge to properly input any formulas. In school you were also still forced to learn the fundamentals with less featured calculators. Also a calculator was an accepted tool once you are out of school. AI tools like copilot are still controversial within the industry and have no business being in education.
- madrox 4y ago
  It may be hard to believe, but this was the same argument I heard about calculators in the 80s. All that's really changed is that calculators are "normal." AI tools aren't going anywhere. They're just stackoverflow with fewer steps. Pretending they don't exist in education means students will be disadvantaged when they get to the real world and the thing that matters are results.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Pfft. Students come out of college with effectively none of the knowledge they actually need to write code for a company. Never have. Knowing, or not knowing, how to use autocomplete (ML powered or not) isn’t going to change their employability one iota.
  - croes 4y ago
    Let's wait until you get a doctor who got his certificate with tools like Copilot.
- sshine 4y ago
  In high school, the first thing I did when I encountered a new type of assignment was write a small BASIC program on the TI83+ that solved this type. You could argue that if I can write a generalised solution to a problem, I've understood it. And that anyone copying my program would be cheating, but I wouldn't. But it meant I got good at programming, but had limited math solving time. > AI tools like copilot are still controversial within the industry Those of my colleagues who dared try it greatly appreciate it. The rest of us don't think they're cheating. They're just being productive. > have no business being in education You can say that. But it won't change whether students use AI-powered learning tools. These tools force us to rethink education so that we don't simply verify if people did something they could have got help with, since now help has become cheaper. Using a computer should not be considered cheating. It changes the game, and anyone stuck in the old game thinks it's cheating, while everyone in the new game are trying to do something else now.
Nullabillity 4y ago
I don't think I've ever taken a maths class where calculators were allowed (or made sense), from elementary through university. The problems were usually designed to emphasize the thing you were trying to learn at the time, so once you were beyond simple arithmetic then "I think I'll need a calculator for this step" was a clue that you were on the wrong track anyway.
- sfmike 4y ago
  TI calculators were required from middle school forward albeit the ones with stored memory were not allowed because of answer storage. just a straight 83+ 84, you had to write and show the work but the arithmetic was definitely allowed via calculator.
- manchmalscott 4y ago
  Every math class I've taken past elementary school and through college has required a graphing calculator. They don't care if you can do arithmetic in your head, they want to know that you know how to solve a problem, which steps to take. Though I think in this way, you can't even really compare copilot to a calculator, as it seems that copilot tries to know how to solve the problem.
  - nerdjon 4y ago
    I thought in middle school I was still using a normal calculator and was not allowed to use a graphing calculator. But now I don’t remember. The other important part of that at least in my school, we had to use a graphing calculator but were also not allowed to use certain models that made things too easy. That’s exactly my concern here. Once you’re taking algebra it should be a assumption that given the time you can do basic multiplication, division, square roots and others given enough time but there isn’t any point when the more important part is solving other issues. That’s the simple stuff so why not make that easier as long as you learned how to get where you need to get. But can you imagine having a tool like this when taking data structures?!?
- madrox 4y ago
  It sounds like we were in very different classes. I was using a graphing calculator mid-way through high school for calculus and statistics. Before that, I was using a basic one for trig and geometry.
sfmike 4y ago
upvote. this will be argued against but in 10 years we'll all have "generative answer tools" as a standard in all industries. The "autofilling" of industries.
croes 4y ago
If Copilot is allowed then using a ghost writer should also be allowed.
- karlkeefer 4y ago
  It likely will be with language models becoming ubiquitous.
  - sshine 4y ago
    This will truly force language teachers to rethink their job.

by madrox 4y ago

nerdjon 4y ago

I think a calculator is very very different from an AI tool. With a calculator you still had to have enough knowledge to properly input any formulas. In school you were also still forced to learn the fundamentals with less featured calculators. Also a calculator was an accepted tool once you are out of school. AI tools like copilot are still controversial within the industry and have no business being in education.

madrox 4y ago
It may be hard to believe, but this was the same argument I heard about calculators in the 80s. All that's really changed is that calculators are "normal." AI tools aren't going anywhere. They're just stackoverflow with fewer steps. Pretending they don't exist in education means students will be disadvantaged when they get to the real world and the thing that matters are results.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Pfft. Students come out of college with effectively none of the knowledge they actually need to write code for a company. Never have. Knowing, or not knowing, how to use autocomplete (ML powered or not) isn’t going to change their employability one iota.
- croes 4y ago
  Let's wait until you get a doctor who got his certificate with tools like Copilot.
sshine 4y ago
In high school, the first thing I did when I encountered a new type of assignment was write a small BASIC program on the TI83+ that solved this type. You could argue that if I can write a generalised solution to a problem, I've understood it. And that anyone copying my program would be cheating, but I wouldn't. But it meant I got good at programming, but had limited math solving time. > AI tools like copilot are still controversial within the industry Those of my colleagues who dared try it greatly appreciate it. The rest of us don't think they're cheating. They're just being productive. > have no business being in education You can say that. But it won't change whether students use AI-powered learning tools. These tools force us to rethink education so that we don't simply verify if people did something they could have got help with, since now help has become cheaper. Using a computer should not be considered cheating. It changes the game, and anyone stuck in the old game thinks it's cheating, while everyone in the new game are trying to do something else now.

Nullabillity 4y ago

I don't think I've ever taken a maths class where calculators were allowed (or made sense), from elementary through university. The problems were usually designed to emphasize the thing you were trying to learn at the time, so once you were beyond simple arithmetic then "I think I'll need a calculator for this step" was a clue that you were on the wrong track anyway.

sfmike 4y ago
TI calculators were required from middle school forward albeit the ones with stored memory were not allowed because of answer storage. just a straight 83+ 84, you had to write and show the work but the arithmetic was definitely allowed via calculator.
manchmalscott 4y ago
Every math class I've taken past elementary school and through college has required a graphing calculator. They don't care if you can do arithmetic in your head, they want to know that you know how to solve a problem, which steps to take. Though I think in this way, you can't even really compare copilot to a calculator, as it seems that copilot tries to know how to solve the problem.
- nerdjon 4y ago
  I thought in middle school I was still using a normal calculator and was not allowed to use a graphing calculator. But now I don’t remember. The other important part of that at least in my school, we had to use a graphing calculator but were also not allowed to use certain models that made things too easy. That’s exactly my concern here. Once you’re taking algebra it should be a assumption that given the time you can do basic multiplication, division, square roots and others given enough time but there isn’t any point when the more important part is solving other issues. That’s the simple stuff so why not make that easier as long as you learned how to get where you need to get. But can you imagine having a tool like this when taking data structures?!?
madrox 4y ago
It sounds like we were in very different classes. I was using a graphing calculator mid-way through high school for calculus and statistics. Before that, I was using a basic one for trig and geometry.

sfmike 4y ago

upvote. this will be argued against but in 10 years we'll all have "generative answer tools" as a standard in all industries. The "autofilling" of industries.

croes 4y ago

If Copilot is allowed then using a ghost writer should also be allowed.

karlkeefer 4y ago
It likely will be with language models becoming ubiquitous.
- sshine 4y ago
  This will truly force language teachers to rethink their job.