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Putting aside this sudden change for a moment... I can't be the only one that is concerned by the title of this post? Why is copilot being used by students? T

Putting aside this sudden change for a moment... I can't be the only one that is concerned by the title of this post? Why is copilot being used by students? That seems... like that should be against every school's policy?

krapp 4y ago
Why? Learning to use AI tools properly will be far more valuable to these students in the workplace than any personal knowledge or skill they accumulate.
- nerdjon 4y ago
  I strongly disagree. First off, this tool is still a new tool so "properly" does not exist yet and even if it did it likely won't be the same in a few years. Second, we should be actually teaching programming and how to solve problems (and how to search for them, even if you do just copy and paste from stack overflow you had to understand enough to find it in the first place). This is a shortcut that you should be using once you understand what you are actually writing. Edit: Or are you prepared to make the same argument that using something like chatGPT is perfectly fine for any papers students turn in because they are "learning to use AI tools properly"
  - krapp 4y ago
    >Or are you prepared to make the same argument that using something like chatGPT is perfectly fine for any papers students turn in because they are "learning to use AI tools properly" Yes, because I believe all so-called creative fields will be dominated by AI in the near future. Programming jobs will mostly be replaced with jobs writing prompts for the AIs that write the code, stories, make the art, music, etc. If people want to learn programming and problem solving, it would be better to do so online, and in their free time, as a hobby. At least in the US, that won't mean taking on a lifetime debt burden in the midst of a market working as aggressively as possible to make you obsolete.
    - tracker1 4y ago
      > Yes, because I believe all so-called creative fields will be dominated by AI in the near future. Programming jobs will mostly be replaced with jobs writing prompts for the AIs that write the code, stories, make the art, music, etc. I'm not convinced of that. Mostly in that for every "easy" tool to do things like make forms for input, store data and print reports... there has always been a limit to where you need an actual developer/programmer to do more. And in many cases, it's more work to customize the tooling than if it was written in a more programmer friendly environment to begin with.
madrox 4y ago
Copilot is the calculator for a new age. In spite of everything my math teacher warned me about, if I am in a situation where I do not have immediate access to a calculator, I am not in a situation where I need to do quick math. We make determinations all the time about what amount of technology assistance is "ok" and what isn't and it usually correlates to what the educator had access to as a child. That's kind of weak, if you ask me. We need to stop pretending we're educating most people to live in a world that won't have immediate access to technology.
- nerdjon 4y ago
  I think a calculator is very very different from an AI tool. With a calculator you still had to have enough knowledge to properly input any formulas. In school you were also still forced to learn the fundamentals with less featured calculators. Also a calculator was an accepted tool once you are out of school. AI tools like copilot are still controversial within the industry and have no business being in education.
  - madrox 4y ago
    It may be hard to believe, but this was the same argument I heard about calculators in the 80s. All that's really changed is that calculators are "normal." AI tools aren't going anywhere. They're just stackoverflow with fewer steps. Pretending they don't exist in education means students will be disadvantaged when they get to the real world and the thing that matters are results.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      Pfft. Students come out of college with effectively none of the knowledge they actually need to write code for a company. Never have. Knowing, or not knowing, how to use autocomplete (ML powered or not) isn’t going to change their employability one iota.
    - croes 4y ago
      Let's wait until you get a doctor who got his certificate with tools like Copilot.
we-do-not-sow 4y ago
Without speaking to the ethics of the situation in either direction, I will say as a student that the vast majority of my time spent programming is on open source, or random personal projects. Assignments are maybe 10% of the time maximum. At least among my circle of friends (a fairly enthusiastic crowd, not a perfect representation of the major) this seems to be typical.
sfmike 4y ago
lets ban calculators too, or any sort of cleverness, procedural answers written by blood no pen or papers either.
runeblaze 4y ago
Let's not forget that PhD students (or better named "student researchers") exist.

krapp 4y ago

Why? Learning to use AI tools properly will be far more valuable to these students in the workplace than any personal knowledge or skill they accumulate.

nerdjon 4y ago
I strongly disagree. First off, this tool is still a new tool so "properly" does not exist yet and even if it did it likely won't be the same in a few years. Second, we should be actually teaching programming and how to solve problems (and how to search for them, even if you do just copy and paste from stack overflow you had to understand enough to find it in the first place). This is a shortcut that you should be using once you understand what you are actually writing. Edit: Or are you prepared to make the same argument that using something like chatGPT is perfectly fine for any papers students turn in because they are "learning to use AI tools properly"
- krapp 4y ago
  >Or are you prepared to make the same argument that using something like chatGPT is perfectly fine for any papers students turn in because they are "learning to use AI tools properly" Yes, because I believe all so-called creative fields will be dominated by AI in the near future. Programming jobs will mostly be replaced with jobs writing prompts for the AIs that write the code, stories, make the art, music, etc. If people want to learn programming and problem solving, it would be better to do so online, and in their free time, as a hobby. At least in the US, that won't mean taking on a lifetime debt burden in the midst of a market working as aggressively as possible to make you obsolete.
  - tracker1 4y ago
    > Yes, because I believe all so-called creative fields will be dominated by AI in the near future. Programming jobs will mostly be replaced with jobs writing prompts for the AIs that write the code, stories, make the art, music, etc. I'm not convinced of that. Mostly in that for every "easy" tool to do things like make forms for input, store data and print reports... there has always been a limit to where you need an actual developer/programmer to do more. And in many cases, it's more work to customize the tooling than if it was written in a more programmer friendly environment to begin with.

madrox 4y ago

Copilot is the calculator for a new age. In spite of everything my math teacher warned me about, if I am in a situation where I do not have immediate access to a calculator, I am not in a situation where I need to do quick math. We make determinations all the time about what amount of technology assistance is "ok" and what isn't and it usually correlates to what the educator had access to as a child. That's kind of weak, if you ask me. We need to stop pretending we're educating most people to live in a world that won't have immediate access to technology.

nerdjon 4y ago
I think a calculator is very very different from an AI tool. With a calculator you still had to have enough knowledge to properly input any formulas. In school you were also still forced to learn the fundamentals with less featured calculators. Also a calculator was an accepted tool once you are out of school. AI tools like copilot are still controversial within the industry and have no business being in education.
- madrox 4y ago
  It may be hard to believe, but this was the same argument I heard about calculators in the 80s. All that's really changed is that calculators are "normal." AI tools aren't going anywhere. They're just stackoverflow with fewer steps. Pretending they don't exist in education means students will be disadvantaged when they get to the real world and the thing that matters are results.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Pfft. Students come out of college with effectively none of the knowledge they actually need to write code for a company. Never have. Knowing, or not knowing, how to use autocomplete (ML powered or not) isn’t going to change their employability one iota.
  - croes 4y ago
    Let's wait until you get a doctor who got his certificate with tools like Copilot.

we-do-not-sow 4y ago

Without speaking to the ethics of the situation in either direction, I will say as a student that the vast majority of my time spent programming is on open source, or random personal projects. Assignments are maybe 10% of the time maximum. At least among my circle of friends (a fairly enthusiastic crowd, not a perfect representation of the major) this seems to be typical.

sfmike 4y ago

lets ban calculators too, or any sort of cleverness, procedural answers written by blood no pen or papers either.

runeblaze 4y ago

Let's not forget that PhD students (or better named "student researchers") exist.