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The book "Algorithms to Live By" by Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths has a small chapter on Nash equilibria in game theory and uses a interesting example invol

The book "Algorithms to Live By" by Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths has a small chapter on Nash equilibria in game theory and uses a interesting example involving 'unlimited' PTO in the corporate world: All employees want, in theory, to take as much vacation as possible. But they also all want to take just slightly less vacation than each other, to be perceived as more loyal, more committed, and more dedicated (hence more promotion-worthy). Everyone looks to the others for a baseline, and will take just slightly less than that. The Nash equilibrium of this game is zero.

cyanydeez 4y ago
Mmm . Sounds like useless economic theory. I'd more so suggest the approval process of unlimited vacation relies more thoroughly on favoritism and how much time put in is determined entirely by the feedback management gives to individuals. I'd posit very few implementations are employee driven.
mc32 4y ago
This is pretty much what happens in Japan --but without the need for a pretense of "unlimited vacation".
tayo42 4y ago
I've worked in some toxic places but nothing that toxic. Time off has never come up in promotion discussions. I don't think people are really counting. I can barely remember last year, you think my manager remembers enough about other people to pit them against each other by a couple days of time off?
- freedomben 4y ago
  Were you part of management? I worked in an unlimited PTO and PTO was never discussed directly with the person, but management discussions often mentioned it, particularly if it was above average. I've often wondered if this was more an exception or more a rule.
  - tayo42 4y ago
    no ive never been. though it seems like if something like that is happening, there must be so much more other toxic stuff going on that it would be the least of my worries. Ive never been somewhere were promotions were pitted against each other like that though. but the titles like "senior" and "staff" are given out like candy ime. maybe its different for a position in low supply like lead or director type role. But most people shouldnt worry i think then
nasmorn 4y ago
But the principal knows that people will resent not having time off at all and will burn out. Why is this seen as having no negative consequences for the employer?
geenew 4y ago
That doesn't factor in the social pressure to take at least as much vacation as your immediate supervisor. Not doing so can reasonably be assumed to be seen as a problem by the supervisor, since they demonstrably think that that level of vacation is important for their well-being. Since no person* can work every day of the year for more than (1? 2?) years, and since supervisors will presumably feel they have greater job safety, over time a more reasonable baseline will be established by people higher up in the company, allowing all to have some time off. There's also the question of how one is perceived by co-workers, since deliberately taking slightly less vacation than others in order to benefit from a perception of being a hard worker carries a risk: you are in effect deceiving others about your intentions. Since the easiest way to not be perceived as deceptive is not to deceive, avoiding the risk of harm to the level of trust others place in you would argue for taking the same, not slightly less, vacation as them. *Not counting outliers

cyanydeez 4y ago

Mmm . Sounds like useless economic theory. I'd more so suggest the approval process of unlimited vacation relies more thoroughly on favoritism and how much time put in is determined entirely by the feedback management gives to individuals. I'd posit very few implementations are employee driven.

mc32 4y ago

This is pretty much what happens in Japan --but without the need for a pretense of "unlimited vacation".

tayo42 4y ago

I've worked in some toxic places but nothing that toxic. Time off has never come up in promotion discussions. I don't think people are really counting. I can barely remember last year, you think my manager remembers enough about other people to pit them against each other by a couple days of time off?

freedomben 4y ago
Were you part of management? I worked in an unlimited PTO and PTO was never discussed directly with the person, but management discussions often mentioned it, particularly if it was above average. I've often wondered if this was more an exception or more a rule.
- tayo42 4y ago
  no ive never been. though it seems like if something like that is happening, there must be so much more other toxic stuff going on that it would be the least of my worries. Ive never been somewhere were promotions were pitted against each other like that though. but the titles like "senior" and "staff" are given out like candy ime. maybe its different for a position in low supply like lead or director type role. But most people shouldnt worry i think then

nasmorn 4y ago

But the principal knows that people will resent not having time off at all and will burn out. Why is this seen as having no negative consequences for the employer?

geenew 4y ago

That doesn't factor in the social pressure to take at least as much vacation as your immediate supervisor. Not doing so can reasonably be assumed to be seen as a problem by the supervisor, since they demonstrably think that that level of vacation is important for their well-being. Since no person* can work every day of the year for more than (1? 2?) years, and since supervisors will presumably feel they have greater job safety, over time a more reasonable baseline will be established by people higher up in the company, allowing all to have some time off. There's also the question of how one is perceived by co-workers, since deliberately taking slightly less vacation than others in order to benefit from a perception of being a hard worker carries a risk: you are in effect deceiving others about your intentions. Since the easiest way to not be perceived as deceptive is not to deceive, avoiding the risk of harm to the level of trust others place in you would argue for taking the same, not slightly less, vacation as them. *Not counting outliers