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> "You're gonna want something that other people make or do or do to you. If they're not your parents or lovers or partners, you better have something to give i

> "You're gonna want something that other people make or do or do to you. If they're not your parents or lovers or partners, you better have something to give in exchange for that thing you want. Otherwise, why would they give it to you ? Making something others want is work." This also has the benefit being true. The first version is jut false. Life doesn't require work. Life requires resources or the money to buy them. A lot of people are born with those resources or the money to buy them, and therefore don't need to work. IMO, expecting something for nothing is somewhat immoral (except in cases where you don't have anything to give for reasons such as disability, age, and so on), but spending productive years clipping coupons or collecting dividends without contributing to society is pretty close to the root of all evil.

PathOfEclipse 4y ago
> This also has the benefit being true. The first version is jut false. Life doesn't require work. Life requires resources or the money to buy them. A lot of people are born with those resources or the money to buy them, and therefore don't need to work. You didn't actually disprove that life requires work. Quite the opposite. You instead seem to be saying that society is structured in such a way that some people can live off the fruits of the labor of others. No one has access to any resources without someone having done work to create/acquire those resources. > IMO, expecting something for nothing is somewhat immoral I can definitely agree on this, though. I am generally against the notion of "positive rights". I have yet to see a good argument for why any should exist universally. I do believe in what I think is a related concept of responsibilities. Parents, for instance, are responsible for the well-being of their own children. We can argue that society is responsible for its own poor and needy as well, but that is not the same as saying those people have a particular right to anything or that society can best fulfill its responsibilities through government programs like wealth redistribution or UBI.
- analognoise 4y ago
  "We can argue that society is responsible for its own poor and needy as well, but that is not the same as saying those people have a particular right to anything" That's exactly what it means, though...
  - PathOfEclipse 4y ago
    > That's exactly what it means, though... No. I don't think so. As an example: A starving person does not have an inherent right to food. On the other hand, if someone has enough to feed his own self, family and then some, one can argue he has a responsibility to assist others who do not have enough. I do not see one to be the same as the other. Positive rights force other people to give you something. Responsibilities, on the other hand, direct you to give to others. Giving is not the same as taking. Responsibilities are also hierarchical and some take precedence over others, and it is up to the person's discretion to decide how and when to fulfill them. Rights, on the other hand, are generally not seen as hierarchical but all-or-nothing. From https://www.unfpa.org/resources/human-rights-principles https://www.unfpa.org/resources/human-rights-principles: "Consequently, all human rights have equal status, and cannot be positioned in a hierarchical order. Denial of one right invariably impedes enjoyment of other rights. Thus, the right of everyone to an adequate standard of living cannot be compromised at the expense of other rights, such as the right to health or the right to education." I can say I probably agree with nothing from the above link, but it at least provides evidence that people do not view positive rights as either hierarchical or at the discretion of the giver. I lastly think it can't be undervalued that giving viewed as a responsibility is more likely to inspire gratitude in the receiver, whereas taking viewed as a right tends to inculcate a demanding and ungrateful spirit in the taker.
    - analognoise 4y ago
      "A starving person does not have an inherent right to food." What kind of psychotic reasoning is this? Of course people have an inherent right to food. I'm not a fan of positive rights either - when it comes to code (I avoid GPL stuff whenever possible). But we aren't all on this planet together so we can deny others food, that's just crazy.
      - PathOfEclipse 4y ago
        You did a great job of misinterpreting what I said, but what I said is true and not even remotely psychotic. If anything, your reaction is a little crazy! I would like to note that you had no counterargument. You surely don't have a right to food. You go out and get it yourself! I, on the other hand, have a moral responsibility to share my extra food with those who lack. I base my morality on my belief in God and what he expects of me. I am curious what you base your morality off of. > But we aren't all on this planet together so we can deny others food Speaking of psychotic, How did "I have a responsibility for the poor and needy" get converted in your head to "I am on this planet so I can deny food to others"?
- yunwal 4y ago
  No, you forget that a governed society has no right to exist. It only gains its legitimacy when it’s preferable to an ungoverned society and other achievable alternatives. In an ungoverned society, it’s rather trivial to build yourself a decent shelter and gather food (if you’re able-bodied). What’s not possible in ungoverned society is gathering more resources than you can personally protect.
  - PathOfEclipse 4y ago
    > No, you forget that a governed society has no right to exist. I don't know that that is true or really what it's supposed to mean, so I'm going to challenge it. > It only gains its legitimacy when it’s preferable to an ungoverned society and other achievable alternatives. I have a feeling there's a lot of suppositions or beliefs one must have prior to making statements like these that I don't share. > it’s rather trivial to build yourself a decent shelter and gather food (if you’re able-bodied). Is it? I've watched a few episodes of "Alone" on Netflix and it sure doesn't look easy to me. Some seasons seem to devolve into "fattest man wins" because he starves last. > What’s not possible in ungoverned society is gathering more resources than you can personally protect. Why is that true? Could I not ask others to help me protect these resources? I don't need a government to do that.
    - yunwal 4y ago
      > I have a feeling there's a lot of suppositions or beliefs one must have prior to making statements like these that I don't share. Do you agree that you can choose to not follow the law? Would you also agree that if enough people chose to not follow the law, government would cease to exist? > Is it? I've watched a few episodes of "Alone" on Netflix and it sure doesn't look easy to me. Some seasons seem to devolve into "fattest man wins" because he starves last. Natural law doesn't really preclude you from cooperating, unlike reality shows. Also, in the natural world you generally migrate to places where resources are not scarce. > Why is that true? Could I not ask others to help me protect these resources? I don't need a government to do that. Why would they protect these resources rather than take them? Perhaps if you knew them personally and rewarded them generously, they'd do it, but then I'd say you're personally involved in protecting them. That doesn't scale to the extremes we have right now. There are no billionaire equivalents without government violence.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  By work I meant the formal arrangement by which goods and services and exchanged for a currency or bartered for other goods and services within the scope of the rule of law. In particular, I was replying to this quote: >>> "You're gonna want something that other people make or do or do to you. If they're not your parents or lovers or partners, you better have something to give in exchange for that thing you want. Otherwise, why would they give it to you ? Making something others want is work." With respect to my presumption; yes, I'm responding to the status quo, my point may not be universally true but it also is in no way hypothetical.
dsr_ 4y ago
Nobody is born with resources or money. Societies institute those practices. Societies can decide to change them.
tshaddox 4y ago
> expecting something for nothing is somewhat immoral Note that this precise wording is likely to be used both by people who insist that you have no right to someone else's profits and by people who insist that you have no right to profit without working.

PathOfEclipse 4y ago

> This also has the benefit being true. The first version is jut false. Life doesn't require work. Life requires resources or the money to buy them. A lot of people are born with those resources or the money to buy them, and therefore don't need to work. You didn't actually disprove that life requires work. Quite the opposite. You instead seem to be saying that society is structured in such a way that some people can live off the fruits of the labor of others. No one has access to any resources without someone having done work to create/acquire those resources. > IMO, expecting something for nothing is somewhat immoral I can definitely agree on this, though. I am generally against the notion of "positive rights". I have yet to see a good argument for why any should exist universally. I do believe in what I think is a related concept of responsibilities. Parents, for instance, are responsible for the well-being of their own children. We can argue that society is responsible for its own poor and needy as well, but that is not the same as saying those people have a particular right to anything or that society can best fulfill its responsibilities through government programs like wealth redistribution or UBI.

analognoise 4y ago
"We can argue that society is responsible for its own poor and needy as well, but that is not the same as saying those people have a particular right to anything" That's exactly what it means, though...
- PathOfEclipse 4y ago
  > That's exactly what it means, though... No. I don't think so. As an example: A starving person does not have an inherent right to food. On the other hand, if someone has enough to feed his own self, family and then some, one can argue he has a responsibility to assist others who do not have enough. I do not see one to be the same as the other. Positive rights force other people to give you something. Responsibilities, on the other hand, direct you to give to others. Giving is not the same as taking. Responsibilities are also hierarchical and some take precedence over others, and it is up to the person's discretion to decide how and when to fulfill them. Rights, on the other hand, are generally not seen as hierarchical but all-or-nothing. From https://www.unfpa.org/resources/human-rights-principles https://www.unfpa.org/resources/human-rights-principles: "Consequently, all human rights have equal status, and cannot be positioned in a hierarchical order. Denial of one right invariably impedes enjoyment of other rights. Thus, the right of everyone to an adequate standard of living cannot be compromised at the expense of other rights, such as the right to health or the right to education." I can say I probably agree with nothing from the above link, but it at least provides evidence that people do not view positive rights as either hierarchical or at the discretion of the giver. I lastly think it can't be undervalued that giving viewed as a responsibility is more likely to inspire gratitude in the receiver, whereas taking viewed as a right tends to inculcate a demanding and ungrateful spirit in the taker.
  - analognoise 4y ago
    "A starving person does not have an inherent right to food." What kind of psychotic reasoning is this? Of course people have an inherent right to food. I'm not a fan of positive rights either - when it comes to code (I avoid GPL stuff whenever possible). But we aren't all on this planet together so we can deny others food, that's just crazy.
    - PathOfEclipse 4y ago
      You did a great job of misinterpreting what I said, but what I said is true and not even remotely psychotic. If anything, your reaction is a little crazy! I would like to note that you had no counterargument. You surely don't have a right to food. You go out and get it yourself! I, on the other hand, have a moral responsibility to share my extra food with those who lack. I base my morality on my belief in God and what he expects of me. I am curious what you base your morality off of. > But we aren't all on this planet together so we can deny others food Speaking of psychotic, How did "I have a responsibility for the poor and needy" get converted in your head to "I am on this planet so I can deny food to others"?
yunwal 4y ago
No, you forget that a governed society has no right to exist. It only gains its legitimacy when it’s preferable to an ungoverned society and other achievable alternatives. In an ungoverned society, it’s rather trivial to build yourself a decent shelter and gather food (if you’re able-bodied). What’s not possible in ungoverned society is gathering more resources than you can personally protect.
- PathOfEclipse 4y ago
  > No, you forget that a governed society has no right to exist. I don't know that that is true or really what it's supposed to mean, so I'm going to challenge it. > It only gains its legitimacy when it’s preferable to an ungoverned society and other achievable alternatives. I have a feeling there's a lot of suppositions or beliefs one must have prior to making statements like these that I don't share. > it’s rather trivial to build yourself a decent shelter and gather food (if you’re able-bodied). Is it? I've watched a few episodes of "Alone" on Netflix and it sure doesn't look easy to me. Some seasons seem to devolve into "fattest man wins" because he starves last. > What’s not possible in ungoverned society is gathering more resources than you can personally protect. Why is that true? Could I not ask others to help me protect these resources? I don't need a government to do that.
  - yunwal 4y ago
    > I have a feeling there's a lot of suppositions or beliefs one must have prior to making statements like these that I don't share. Do you agree that you can choose to not follow the law? Would you also agree that if enough people chose to not follow the law, government would cease to exist? > Is it? I've watched a few episodes of "Alone" on Netflix and it sure doesn't look easy to me. Some seasons seem to devolve into "fattest man wins" because he starves last. Natural law doesn't really preclude you from cooperating, unlike reality shows. Also, in the natural world you generally migrate to places where resources are not scarce. > Why is that true? Could I not ask others to help me protect these resources? I don't need a government to do that. Why would they protect these resources rather than take them? Perhaps if you knew them personally and rewarded them generously, they'd do it, but then I'd say you're personally involved in protecting them. That doesn't scale to the extremes we have right now. There are no billionaire equivalents without government violence.
thwayunion 4y ago
By work I meant the formal arrangement by which goods and services and exchanged for a currency or bartered for other goods and services within the scope of the rule of law. In particular, I was replying to this quote: >>> "You're gonna want something that other people make or do or do to you. If they're not your parents or lovers or partners, you better have something to give in exchange for that thing you want. Otherwise, why would they give it to you ? Making something others want is work." With respect to my presumption; yes, I'm responding to the status quo, my point may not be universally true but it also is in no way hypothetical.

dsr_ 4y ago

Nobody is born with resources or money. Societies institute those practices. Societies can decide to change them.

tshaddox 4y ago

> expecting something for nothing is somewhat immoral Note that this precise wording is likely to be used both by people who insist that you have no right to someone else's profits and by people who insist that you have no right to profit without working.