6 ms·

Interestingly, on the U.S. Form 1040 income tax return, when describing the relationship to you of your offspring that you are claiming as dependent(s), the onl

Interestingly, on the U.S. Form 1040 income tax return, when describing the relationship to you of your offspring that you are claiming as dependent(s), the only choices are "son" or "daughter".

ajvs 4y ago
So?
- fknorangesite 4y ago
  People can be nonbinary, in which case neither "son" nor "daughter" is accurate.
  - nailer 4y ago
    What if it's asking about their sex rather than their gender identity?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      There can be non-binary sexes, too. It's a thing that happens, but it's much more rare than non-binary gender.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > What if it’s asking about their sex rather than their gender identity? Legal sex (which is really ascribed gender, and starts out as assigned gender at birth) has the exact same problem as gender identity here. As does assigned gender at birth itself (since there are people for whom that is neither male nor female as legally recorded.) But given the mix of gendered and non-gendered terms in the instruction, its just a product of the fact that both law, and even more the bureaucratic processes and documents supporting its application, is very much not DRY, so “we recognize the existence of non-binary gender” isn’t a point change to the “gender” module of the legal system, rather it requires changes throughout a “code base” that is giant, and has no version control or test suite.
  - bonron 4y ago
    [dead]
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Biological sex is also non-binary.
      - bonron 4y ago
        It's not, as it refers to the two parts (female and male) of a binary reproductive system. There's no third type of gamete, and therefore no additional sex category that would make it non-binary.
  - nicky0 4y ago
    Turns out you need to pick a side for tax purposes.
    - fknorangesite 4y ago
      For what purpose? Are you sure you are not committing an is-ought fallacy?
      - nicky0 4y ago
        For the purpose of filling in the tax form.
      - PopAlongKid 4y ago
        I suspect the problem is one of people mis-understanding the complex rules for claiming dependents. In decades past, the term "child" was actually allowed by tax software approved for IRS filing, but presumably too many people thought that meant any child they happened to have some financial relationship to, rather than the very specific relations required by tax law. By requiring more specific terms, it made it harder for people to mis-claim children as dependents.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - throwaway290 4y ago
      Which is exactly the hilarity that was pointed out
  - happyopossum 4y ago
    Son and Daughter refer to a sex binary, so non-binary non-physical stuff doesn't come in to play here.
    - throwaway290 4y ago
      First, why does the tax man need to know what genitalia your children have and are you comfortable with that? Second, what do you consider people with neither or both kinds? Subhumans ineligible to be dependents?
      - ajvs 4y ago
        > Second, what do you consider people with neither or both kinds? Male/female is determined by chromosomes, either XX or XY.
        throwaway290 4y ago
        Ah. Totally relevant this piece of information when tax is concerned. /s Seriously however, any link to where this is specified in the way you claim it to be? How does it see SRY gene disorders? If your child is a daughter to you but technically has XY, will the law mandate you to declare her as a son? etc.
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Male/female is determined by chromosomes, either XX or XY. This isn’t true legally (where “sex” is really an ascribed gender assigned at birth and possibly updated later for a variety of reasons) or medically (since an individual with a 46,XX karyotype can be male or female medically, as can an individual with a 46,XY karyotype.)
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kgwxd 4y ago
It's an open textbox, they just give examples. I'm sure you could put in child, or child of sibling, grandchild is already neutral, foster child, etc.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > It’s an open textbox, they just give examples No, the instructions give a specific list of qualifying relations. They only give examples for the last one, which is a descendant of any of the earlier-listed ones. Except for that last one, “foster child” and “stepchild”, they all use gender paired terms (“brother, sister”, “half brother, half sister”, “son, daughter”, etc.) https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf p17
kube-system 4y ago
Might you be using tax software that gives you choices? The 1040 has a free-text entry for this, and the instructions don't state that you must enter anything in particular.
- PopAlongKid 4y ago
  The vast majority of U.S. personal income tax returns are prepared by software, even paper-filed returns. As stated elsewhere, yes the instructions do specify the descriptors used for dependents. Interestingly, "grandchild" "stepchild", and "foster child" is allowed. "A qualifying child is a child who is your... Son, daughter, stepchild, foster child, brother, sister, stepbrother, stepsister, half-brother, half sister, or a descendant of any of them (for example, your grandchild, niece, or nephew)"
  - kube-system 4y ago
    That sentence is giving examples in general of who qualifies. It does not dictate how you fill out the field. The law just requires the child dependent to be related by blood or adoption. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/fs-05-07.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/fs-05-07.pdf
- pavon 4y ago
  But the instructions do list who is eligible to be claimed as a dependent, and son and daughter are the only listed options for your direct children. If you wanted to be pedantic and say that your child is not a son or daughter, then they would fall under "Any other person (other than your spouse) who lived with you all year as a member of your household if your relationship didn't violate local law" and you would only be able to claim the "Credit for other dependents", and not the "Child tax credit".
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Those are examples. The actual test required by tax law is that the dependent is related by blood or adoption. https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-26-internal-revenue-code/26-usc-sect-152.html https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-26-internal-revenue-code/... > (2) Relationship. --For purposes of paragraph (1)(A), an individual bears a relationship to the taxpayer described in this paragraph if such individual is-- > (A) a child of the taxpayer or a descendant of such a child,
stonogo 4y ago
This is plainly false. Here is the form: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf Neither the words 'son' nor 'daughter' appear in it at all. The words 'dependent' and 'child' are present. edit: even going back to 1950 we get "other dependent relative" https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f1040--1950.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f1040--1950.pdf going back to 1930 we get "person (other than husband or wife) under eighteen years old" https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f1040--1930.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f1040--1930.pdf
- PopAlongKid 4y ago
  IRS tax forms by themselves, without referring to the accompanying instructions, are not meant to be (and usually are not) comprehensive.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > This is plainly false. No, its not. > Neither the words ‘son’ nor ‘daughter’ appear in it at all. No, what appears on the form is the column heading “Relation to you” with a free text field in that column for each line for a dependent claimed. But that is not the issue. What appears on the instructions [0] determining when you can use the line (and what is therefore likely replicated in tooling which supports completing the form in line with the instructions) is this “A qualifying child is a child who is your… Son, daughter, stepchild, foster child, brother, sister, stepbrother, stepsister, half brother, half sister, or a descendant of any of them (for example, your grandchild, niece, or nephew).” [1] Which, read strictly, says that a first-generation biological descendant of yours must have binary gender (“son, daughter”), as must a biological- or step-sibling (“brother, sister, stepbrother, stepsister, half brother, half sister”), though binary gender is not important if they are your foster or adopted child (“stepchild, foster child”), nor is it important for a qualifying descendant child (but still required for the first ancestor through which their qualification is traced) of any of the others (“or a descendant of any of them”.) I think it is pretty clear that the use of words specifying binary gender is overspecific drafting of either the instructions or the source legislation/regulation, not that there is really an intent to apply limitations by binary gender at select, but not all, levels of this qualification. But the limitation is there in the text. [0] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf [1] p. 17

Interestingly, on the U.S. Form 1040 income tax return, when describing the relationship to you of your offspring that you are claiming as dependent(s), the only choices are "son" or "daughter".

ajvs 4y ago

So?

fknorangesite 4y ago
People can be nonbinary, in which case neither "son" nor "daughter" is accurate.
- nailer 4y ago
  What if it's asking about their sex rather than their gender identity?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    There can be non-binary sexes, too. It's a thing that happens, but it's much more rare than non-binary gender.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > What if it’s asking about their sex rather than their gender identity? Legal sex (which is really ascribed gender, and starts out as assigned gender at birth) has the exact same problem as gender identity here. As does assigned gender at birth itself (since there are people for whom that is neither male nor female as legally recorded.) But given the mix of gendered and non-gendered terms in the instruction, its just a product of the fact that both law, and even more the bureaucratic processes and documents supporting its application, is very much not DRY, so “we recognize the existence of non-binary gender” isn’t a point change to the “gender” module of the legal system, rather it requires changes throughout a “code base” that is giant, and has no version control or test suite.
- bonron 4y ago
  [dead]
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Biological sex is also non-binary.
    - bonron 4y ago
      It's not, as it refers to the two parts (female and male) of a binary reproductive system. There's no third type of gamete, and therefore no additional sex category that would make it non-binary.
- nicky0 4y ago
  Turns out you need to pick a side for tax purposes.
  - fknorangesite 4y ago
    For what purpose? Are you sure you are not committing an is-ought fallacy?
    - nicky0 4y ago
      For the purpose of filling in the tax form.
    - PopAlongKid 4y ago
      I suspect the problem is one of people mis-understanding the complex rules for claiming dependents. In decades past, the term "child" was actually allowed by tax software approved for IRS filing, but presumably too many people thought that meant any child they happened to have some financial relationship to, rather than the very specific relations required by tax law. By requiring more specific terms, it made it harder for people to mis-claim children as dependents.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    Which is exactly the hilarity that was pointed out
- happyopossum 4y ago
  Son and Daughter refer to a sex binary, so non-binary non-physical stuff doesn't come in to play here.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    First, why does the tax man need to know what genitalia your children have and are you comfortable with that? Second, what do you consider people with neither or both kinds? Subhumans ineligible to be dependents?
    - ajvs 4y ago
      > Second, what do you consider people with neither or both kinds? Male/female is determined by chromosomes, either XX or XY.
      - throwaway290 4y ago
        Ah. Totally relevant this piece of information when tax is concerned. /s Seriously however, any link to where this is specified in the way you claim it to be? How does it see SRY gene disorders? If your child is a daughter to you but technically has XY, will the law mandate you to declare her as a son? etc.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Male/female is determined by chromosomes, either XX or XY. This isn’t true legally (where “sex” is really an ascribed gender assigned at birth and possibly updated later for a variety of reasons) or medically (since an individual with a 46,XX karyotype can be male or female medically, as can an individual with a 46,XY karyotype.)

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kgwxd 4y ago

It's an open textbox, they just give examples. I'm sure you could put in child, or child of sibling, grandchild is already neutral, foster child, etc.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> It’s an open textbox, they just give examples No, the instructions give a specific list of qualifying relations. They only give examples for the last one, which is a descendant of any of the earlier-listed ones. Except for that last one, “foster child” and “stepchild”, they all use gender paired terms (“brother, sister”, “half brother, half sister”, “son, daughter”, etc.) https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf p17

kube-system 4y ago

Might you be using tax software that gives you choices? The 1040 has a free-text entry for this, and the instructions don't state that you must enter anything in particular.

PopAlongKid 4y ago
The vast majority of U.S. personal income tax returns are prepared by software, even paper-filed returns. As stated elsewhere, yes the instructions do specify the descriptors used for dependents. Interestingly, "grandchild" "stepchild", and "foster child" is allowed. "A qualifying child is a child who is your... Son, daughter, stepchild, foster child, brother, sister, stepbrother, stepsister, half-brother, half sister, or a descendant of any of them (for example, your grandchild, niece, or nephew)"
- kube-system 4y ago
  That sentence is giving examples in general of who qualifies. It does not dictate how you fill out the field. The law just requires the child dependent to be related by blood or adoption. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/fs-05-07.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/fs-05-07.pdf
pavon 4y ago
But the instructions do list who is eligible to be claimed as a dependent, and son and daughter are the only listed options for your direct children. If you wanted to be pedantic and say that your child is not a son or daughter, then they would fall under "Any other person (other than your spouse) who lived with you all year as a member of your household if your relationship didn't violate local law" and you would only be able to claim the "Credit for other dependents", and not the "Child tax credit".
- kube-system 4y ago
  Those are examples. The actual test required by tax law is that the dependent is related by blood or adoption. https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-26-internal-revenue-code/26-usc-sect-152.html https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-26-internal-revenue-code/... > (2) Relationship. --For purposes of paragraph (1)(A), an individual bears a relationship to the taxpayer described in this paragraph if such individual is-- > (A) a child of the taxpayer or a descendant of such a child,

stonogo 4y ago

This is plainly false. Here is the form: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf Neither the words 'son' nor 'daughter' appear in it at all. The words 'dependent' and 'child' are present. edit: even going back to 1950 we get "other dependent relative" https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f1040--1950.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f1040--1950.pdf going back to 1930 we get "person (other than husband or wife) under eighteen years old" https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f1040--1930.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f1040--1930.pdf

PopAlongKid 4y ago
IRS tax forms by themselves, without referring to the accompanying instructions, are not meant to be (and usually are not) comprehensive.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> This is plainly false. No, its not. > Neither the words ‘son’ nor ‘daughter’ appear in it at all. No, what appears on the form is the column heading “Relation to you” with a free text field in that column for each line for a dependent claimed. But that is not the issue. What appears on the instructions [0] determining when you can use the line (and what is therefore likely replicated in tooling which supports completing the form in line with the instructions) is this “A qualifying child is a child who is your… Son, daughter, stepchild, foster child, brother, sister, stepbrother, stepsister, half brother, half sister, or a descendant of any of them (for example, your grandchild, niece, or nephew).” [1] Which, read strictly, says that a first-generation biological descendant of yours must have binary gender (“son, daughter”), as must a biological- or step-sibling (“brother, sister, stepbrother, stepsister, half brother, half sister”), though binary gender is not important if they are your foster or adopted child (“stepchild, foster child”), nor is it important for a qualifying descendant child (but still required for the first ancestor through which their qualification is traced) of any of the others (“or a descendant of any of them”.) I think it is pretty clear that the use of words specifying binary gender is overspecific drafting of either the instructions or the source legislation/regulation, not that there is really an intent to apply limitations by binary gender at select, but not all, levels of this qualification. But the limitation is there in the text. [0] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf [1] p. 17