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Earned/accrued PTO is part of your compensation package. "Unlimited PTO" is PR-style spin on the loss of that compensation; you're being fleeced by your employ

Earned/accrued PTO is part of your compensation package. "Unlimited PTO" is PR-style spin on the loss of that compensation; you're being fleeced by your employer. When you leave a company with PTO where you worked your ass off and never took any vacation, you're cut a check for that unused PTO. When you leave a company with "unlimited PTO" after doing the same, you get nothing. Edit: according to some comments, this is state-specific. The above applies to CA.

price456987 4y ago
On the other hand, if you take advantage of having a lot of PTO, you get a lot of PTO.
silisili 4y ago
Yup. I worked a long time at a company with service years based PTO. Finally earned the coveted 6 weeks PTO, which is pretty nice for a US company. About 2 years later, they decided to flip us to 'unlimited PTO' and put that typical HR BS spin on it. That was the last straw for me, after a couple other little 'f u' changes (once a year 401k match, for example). Cashed out my PTO and went elsewhere.
- pengaru 4y ago
  I had a similar experience at a startup where I'd never used any PTO endlessly burning at both ends. A few years in, executives abruptly told everyone they were switching to "unlimited PTO" and everyone's accrued PTO would be erased "since it's no longer necessary, take as much vacation as you want." Sales/marketing depts celebrated. My team in engineering flipped out since none of us had ever used any PTO, and knew there were some sizable checks waiting for our exit. I ended up telling leadership if they pull this erasing shit, which is probably illegal, I quit immediately and will be in tomorrow to interview and renegotiate compensation if they like. Everyone received checks for their unused PTO that week. They still switched to unlimited PTO, which us in engineering never really got to use. In a startup it's a race against the runway running out while you're still building the plane, nobody has time for PTO, and they knew this.
rednerrus 4y ago
This is true in California but not everywhere. The benefit of unlimited PTO (FTO) is only a benefit if you take it. I've had FTO for the last five years and I will never go back to 15/20 days of PTO.
giancarlostoro 4y ago
If you use all your PTO there really is no difference though, so I guess if you're the kind of person who burns through all their available PTO, I would not consider a Unlimited PTO employer a bad deal. Some of the agencies I work with at my job, they have unlimited PTO, we only found out because one of my managers noticed one particular person had a lot of PTO they ran through last year.
kube-system 4y ago
> you're cut a check for that unused PTO. Only 5 states require this. Most states allow companies to choose what to do with unused PTO, and many, (surprise!) choose not to pay it out.
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  It's great when a company calls this out in their handbook. If you're blessed to live in these states, we'll pay out your PTO, otherwise too bad.
- pengaru 4y ago
  Huh, I didn't know that was so exceptional. Between the protection of owning inventions created on your own time, and getting paid for unused PTO, my state (CA) sounds pretty great for a tech person working in startups.
  - david38 4y ago
    That helps a tiny minority. Most people in startups are massively hurt by compensation laws regard stock and the crazy price of housing. If you in SF it’s worse as the most anti-child city
    - sundaeofshock 4y ago
      That’s a bold statement. Having raised a child here, I’m wondering why you think SF is the most anti-child city.
    - pengaru 4y ago
      > That helps a tiny minority. Only in that HN users form a tiny minority of the general workforce. I wouldn't say it helps a tiny minority of "hackers", invention ownership protections benefits all hackers.
  - tsbischof 4y ago
    I recently had to dig into this. Federalism is wild: https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-laws-by-state/ https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-l...
lucky_cloud 4y ago
Where I work, if I don't use a certain percentage of my earned PTO by Dec 31, it just goes away. They don't cut me a check for it. I think I'd get paid for unused PTO if I quit or was fired, but I couldn't accumulate more than something like 5 weeks worth. I'd love to work for a company that had both unlimited and required PTO. If you don't take enough days off for say six months, they force you to take a week or two off.
- hinkley 4y ago
  Small companies don’t like to carry the liabilities. It makes the company look worse for loans and investors. So they claw back what they gave you which is harder to spot on the books. If you buy a company it’s usually for the people and you won’t know how disgruntled they are until after.
- throwaway2016a 4y ago
  > Where I work, if I don't use a certain percentage of my earned PTO by Dec 31, it just goes away. They don't cut me a check for it. No one I have ever heard of gets cut a check for unused time et the end of the year. It's when you leave (for any reason) in most states you are supposed to be paid out for it. Not true for unlimited PTO.
  - smaryjerry 4y ago
    That’s missing the point, that some jobs you lose a portion of your PTO at year end. So you “earned” that benefit over time but it was taken away.
  - i_r7al 4y ago
    Apple cut you a check for unused PTOs. You don’t lose any PTOs if you don’t use it, you get $$
bastawhiz 4y ago
> When you leave a company with PTO where you worked your ass off and never took any vacation, you're cut a check for that unused PTO. This is objectively false for most of the United States. Plenty of states do not require this, and plenty more have loopholes that allow employers to avoid paying out PTO if specified in the employment agreement. It's also the case that PTO is always capped. So you are forced to use it, meaning the maximum amount you could be paid out is a fairly small fixed amount. Unused PTO above the cap is literally wasted, and used PTO is already part of your salary.
- lowbloodsugar 4y ago
  But is it obviously false for the majority of software engineers in the USA, or even in the world? It is true for WA, CA, and NY. It is truer in Europe.
  - bastawhiz 4y ago
    Far more people work remote and for companies in other states than you'd think.
david38 4y ago
False. Not everyone works in Silicon Valley. Many places just lose it. It also prevents everyone taking off at the end of the year. They didn’t stockpile vacation because they didn’t need to acrue it.

price456987 4y ago

On the other hand, if you take advantage of having a lot of PTO, you get a lot of PTO.

silisili 4y ago

Yup. I worked a long time at a company with service years based PTO. Finally earned the coveted 6 weeks PTO, which is pretty nice for a US company. About 2 years later, they decided to flip us to 'unlimited PTO' and put that typical HR BS spin on it. That was the last straw for me, after a couple other little 'f u' changes (once a year 401k match, for example). Cashed out my PTO and went elsewhere.

pengaru 4y ago
I had a similar experience at a startup where I'd never used any PTO endlessly burning at both ends. A few years in, executives abruptly told everyone they were switching to "unlimited PTO" and everyone's accrued PTO would be erased "since it's no longer necessary, take as much vacation as you want." Sales/marketing depts celebrated. My team in engineering flipped out since none of us had ever used any PTO, and knew there were some sizable checks waiting for our exit. I ended up telling leadership if they pull this erasing shit, which is probably illegal, I quit immediately and will be in tomorrow to interview and renegotiate compensation if they like. Everyone received checks for their unused PTO that week. They still switched to unlimited PTO, which us in engineering never really got to use. In a startup it's a race against the runway running out while you're still building the plane, nobody has time for PTO, and they knew this.

rednerrus 4y ago

This is true in California but not everywhere. The benefit of unlimited PTO (FTO) is only a benefit if you take it. I've had FTO for the last five years and I will never go back to 15/20 days of PTO.

giancarlostoro 4y ago

If you use all your PTO there really is no difference though, so I guess if you're the kind of person who burns through all their available PTO, I would not consider a Unlimited PTO employer a bad deal. Some of the agencies I work with at my job, they have unlimited PTO, we only found out because one of my managers noticed one particular person had a lot of PTO they ran through last year.

kube-system 4y ago

> you're cut a check for that unused PTO. Only 5 states require this. Most states allow companies to choose what to do with unused PTO, and many, (surprise!) choose not to pay it out.

candiddevmike 4y ago
It's great when a company calls this out in their handbook. If you're blessed to live in these states, we'll pay out your PTO, otherwise too bad.
pengaru 4y ago
Huh, I didn't know that was so exceptional. Between the protection of owning inventions created on your own time, and getting paid for unused PTO, my state (CA) sounds pretty great for a tech person working in startups.
- david38 4y ago
  That helps a tiny minority. Most people in startups are massively hurt by compensation laws regard stock and the crazy price of housing. If you in SF it’s worse as the most anti-child city
  - sundaeofshock 4y ago
    That’s a bold statement. Having raised a child here, I’m wondering why you think SF is the most anti-child city.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    > That helps a tiny minority. Only in that HN users form a tiny minority of the general workforce. I wouldn't say it helps a tiny minority of "hackers", invention ownership protections benefits all hackers.
- tsbischof 4y ago
  I recently had to dig into this. Federalism is wild: https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-laws-by-state/ https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-l...

lucky_cloud 4y ago

Where I work, if I don't use a certain percentage of my earned PTO by Dec 31, it just goes away. They don't cut me a check for it. I think I'd get paid for unused PTO if I quit or was fired, but I couldn't accumulate more than something like 5 weeks worth. I'd love to work for a company that had both unlimited and required PTO. If you don't take enough days off for say six months, they force you to take a week or two off.

hinkley 4y ago
Small companies don’t like to carry the liabilities. It makes the company look worse for loans and investors. So they claw back what they gave you which is harder to spot on the books. If you buy a company it’s usually for the people and you won’t know how disgruntled they are until after.
throwaway2016a 4y ago
> Where I work, if I don't use a certain percentage of my earned PTO by Dec 31, it just goes away. They don't cut me a check for it. No one I have ever heard of gets cut a check for unused time et the end of the year. It's when you leave (for any reason) in most states you are supposed to be paid out for it. Not true for unlimited PTO.
- smaryjerry 4y ago
  That’s missing the point, that some jobs you lose a portion of your PTO at year end. So you “earned” that benefit over time but it was taken away.
- i_r7al 4y ago
  Apple cut you a check for unused PTOs. You don’t lose any PTOs if you don’t use it, you get $$

bastawhiz 4y ago

> When you leave a company with PTO where you worked your ass off and never took any vacation, you're cut a check for that unused PTO. This is objectively false for most of the United States. Plenty of states do not require this, and plenty more have loopholes that allow employers to avoid paying out PTO if specified in the employment agreement. It's also the case that PTO is always capped. So you are forced to use it, meaning the maximum amount you could be paid out is a fairly small fixed amount. Unused PTO above the cap is literally wasted, and used PTO is already part of your salary.

lowbloodsugar 4y ago
But is it obviously false for the majority of software engineers in the USA, or even in the world? It is true for WA, CA, and NY. It is truer in Europe.
- bastawhiz 4y ago
  Far more people work remote and for companies in other states than you'd think.

david38 4y ago

False. Not everyone works in Silicon Valley. Many places just lose it. It also prevents everyone taking off at the end of the year. They didn’t stockpile vacation because they didn’t need to acrue it.