8 ms·

Unrelated, but sharing just in case: I don't have electricity training, but last month I replaced my electric panel (upgrading to 30 circuits, keeping 100 amps)

by yboris 4y ago

Unrelated, but sharing just in case: I don't have electricity training, but last month I replaced my electric panel (upgrading to 30 circuits, keeping 100 amps) and it was easy: turn off every breaker (hiding face behind metal panel as is good safety strategy), turn off main, disconnect the meter, touch all dangling hot wires to ground (just in case, unsure if there's weird residual charge from something). Except for applying Noalox, everything is just routine - strip a bit of the wire, screw it into circuit breaker, pop it in. Make sure the panel is grounded to outside (as before), and it's done. Feels like a very easy task for most people - provided that the old wiring didn't have errors. Happy to hear feedback / thoughts on this.

lisper 4y ago
Did you upgrade your wiring? Your old breakers were the size they were for a reason.
- cschneid 4y ago
  The panel and the breakers in it are different things. If you get the right size breakers, that's fine, and even a good idea (breakers go bad over time from what I know. Maybe due to number of trips?). Putting in a new panel can get you more space, or just update to a currently maintained standard for breakers so you can find and put new ones in.
- mediaman 4y ago
  He said he wasn't upgrading amperage, so wire size requirements for existing breakers should not change. It sounds like he was adding circuits which means he's running wires for those new circuits anyway.
- jsmith45 4y ago
  That's not a consideration here. They were just replacing a smaller 100A panel with a larger one. with more circuit spots. That is always allowed. As long as you you use a panel that accepts the same type of breakers, you can also re-use the existing breakers, unless code require upgrading to AFCI breakers. Otherwise you swap them for new breakers of the same rating. (Assuming the US: There are some inspectors who would ok a panel swap that reused the existing breakers without requiring upgrades, but technically upgrading is supposed to be required, unless your state amended out the AFCI requirements in the state version of the code). Note: technically many breakers can fit in competitor panels, but they are not legal. They were not designed nor tested to trip at proper ratings in those panels, and using them violate the labeling of the panel. Now obviously the reason for upgrading the panel is to add more circuits, and it is possible that these additional circuits if added would need more power than the 100A service can provide. To technically comply with code, you need to follow the rules to calculate the expected loading of existing circuits plus planned new circuits.
  - DannyBee 4y ago
    "That is always allowed." The last sentence you wrote is the killer. You are technically correct that changing the number of circuits in the panel is not itself disallowed. But .... you would also be hard pressed to get an AHJ to pass a number-of-circuits upgrade without knowing how many circuits you are planning on adding, and doing the feed sizing calculation to make sure you don't have to upgrade the incoming feed to support it.
- russdill 4y ago
  Even with the same size breakers you have to be careful. Many circuits in the US are wired using a shared neutral. These circuits must not share the same phase and when rewiring an entire panel this seems like it'd be an easy mistake to make.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Multiwire branch circuits must be wired with tied breakers. If the person rewiring doesn't understand that this must be duplicated in the new panel, they definitely has no business upgrading their own panel.
    - russdill 4y ago
      This doesn't appear to have been the case until 2008, at least with multiwire branch circuits that supply separate outlets. Many if not most 100A panels with multiwire branch circuits will have been wired with breakers without ties.
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        I'll take your word for it, but I thought that at least as far back as 2002 it was required that the breaker for a MWBC trip both sides if one trips. I really don't like MWBCs myself, if I would've known the electrician for my house was going to utilize a bunch of them, I'd have happily paid him not to do that.
- yboris 4y ago
  I didn't touch the wiring; just made sure to use the same exact amperage (though I bought all new breakers just in case, and upgraded one to an AFCI - Michigan doesn't require AFCI on everything as the rest of the country seems to mandate). I checked the wire with wire gauge with my wire strippers to make sure 15amp wire is never behind a 20amp breaker.
  - lisper 4y ago
    Sorry, I mis-read your original post. I read it as "upgrading to 30-amp circuits" rather than what it actually says, "upgrading to 30 circuits." My mistake. (In retrospect I should have realized that 30-amp circuits were unrealistic.)
aio2 4y ago
If it is possible to repair anything quickly, it shouldn't be as big of an issue.
Kon-Peki 4y ago
Your willingness to repeatedly follow a process without deviation puts you into a much smaller group than the general population. Yes, the average person can do it, but many won't. And it will be innocent bystanders or firefighters or whatever that pay the ultimate price, not the sloppy guy or gal that saved a few dollars by doing it themselves. I wish that our building codes and permitting system had provisions for "competent amateurs", but how on earth would you do that?
- supertrope 4y ago
  For simpler jobs like installing an EVSE you can do the grunt work of dragging cable and hire a pro to wire it to the panel and pull permits.
  - esel2k 4y ago
    This! I‘ve build a wooden holiday house and we‘ve installed all cables and lamps and plugs and at the end the electrician just verified and approved before connecting the main line.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > I wish that our building codes and permitting system had provisions for "competent amateurs", but how on earth would you do that? What does this mean? Any “amateur” is allowed to do the work anytime they want (on their own home), and anyone can apply for a permit. They just have to pass the same inspection as everyone else. I do not see why the code (rules) would be different though, the principles of electricity and safety do not change.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    > Any “amateur” is allowed to do the work anytime they want (on their own home) This is not true across all US states, let alone other countries. I currently live in a jurisdiction that does allow home owners to do their own electrical work, but they have to pass a (demanding) exam before being licensed to do so. In my previous home state, home owners were not allowed - even if you did the work, a licensed electrician had to be "seen to be responsible".
whitej125 4y ago
Did you have to break a seal on the meter to get to the meter disconnect? If so, what are the implications of that?
- bluGill 4y ago
  Call the electric company and they will send someone out to break the seal. After verifying you have the correct permits. If they trust you they will sometimes tell you to break the seal and call them when done.
- yboris 4y ago
  Last time I had an electrician who was going to be doing work requiring disconnecting the meter - so I called, and it seemed like the easiest thing was for us to just cut the seal and someday later the electric company would come by to replace it. I live in a small town in Michigan; the amount of fuss probably depends on location & density.

by yboris 4y ago

lisper 4y ago

Did you upgrade your wiring? Your old breakers were the size they were for a reason.

cschneid 4y ago
The panel and the breakers in it are different things. If you get the right size breakers, that's fine, and even a good idea (breakers go bad over time from what I know. Maybe due to number of trips?). Putting in a new panel can get you more space, or just update to a currently maintained standard for breakers so you can find and put new ones in.
mediaman 4y ago
He said he wasn't upgrading amperage, so wire size requirements for existing breakers should not change. It sounds like he was adding circuits which means he's running wires for those new circuits anyway.
jsmith45 4y ago
That's not a consideration here. They were just replacing a smaller 100A panel with a larger one. with more circuit spots. That is always allowed. As long as you you use a panel that accepts the same type of breakers, you can also re-use the existing breakers, unless code require upgrading to AFCI breakers. Otherwise you swap them for new breakers of the same rating. (Assuming the US: There are some inspectors who would ok a panel swap that reused the existing breakers without requiring upgrades, but technically upgrading is supposed to be required, unless your state amended out the AFCI requirements in the state version of the code). Note: technically many breakers can fit in competitor panels, but they are not legal. They were not designed nor tested to trip at proper ratings in those panels, and using them violate the labeling of the panel. Now obviously the reason for upgrading the panel is to add more circuits, and it is possible that these additional circuits if added would need more power than the 100A service can provide. To technically comply with code, you need to follow the rules to calculate the expected loading of existing circuits plus planned new circuits.
- DannyBee 4y ago
  "That is always allowed." The last sentence you wrote is the killer. You are technically correct that changing the number of circuits in the panel is not itself disallowed. But .... you would also be hard pressed to get an AHJ to pass a number-of-circuits upgrade without knowing how many circuits you are planning on adding, and doing the feed sizing calculation to make sure you don't have to upgrade the incoming feed to support it.
russdill 4y ago
Even with the same size breakers you have to be careful. Many circuits in the US are wired using a shared neutral. These circuits must not share the same phase and when rewiring an entire panel this seems like it'd be an easy mistake to make.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Multiwire branch circuits must be wired with tied breakers. If the person rewiring doesn't understand that this must be duplicated in the new panel, they definitely has no business upgrading their own panel.
  - russdill 4y ago
    This doesn't appear to have been the case until 2008, at least with multiwire branch circuits that supply separate outlets. Many if not most 100A panels with multiwire branch circuits will have been wired with breakers without ties.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      I'll take your word for it, but I thought that at least as far back as 2002 it was required that the breaker for a MWBC trip both sides if one trips. I really don't like MWBCs myself, if I would've known the electrician for my house was going to utilize a bunch of them, I'd have happily paid him not to do that.
yboris 4y ago
I didn't touch the wiring; just made sure to use the same exact amperage (though I bought all new breakers just in case, and upgraded one to an AFCI - Michigan doesn't require AFCI on everything as the rest of the country seems to mandate). I checked the wire with wire gauge with my wire strippers to make sure 15amp wire is never behind a 20amp breaker.
- lisper 4y ago
  Sorry, I mis-read your original post. I read it as "upgrading to 30-amp circuits" rather than what it actually says, "upgrading to 30 circuits." My mistake. (In retrospect I should have realized that 30-amp circuits were unrealistic.)

aio2 4y ago

If it is possible to repair anything quickly, it shouldn't be as big of an issue.

Kon-Peki 4y ago

Your willingness to repeatedly follow a process without deviation puts you into a much smaller group than the general population. Yes, the average person can do it, but many won't. And it will be innocent bystanders or firefighters or whatever that pay the ultimate price, not the sloppy guy or gal that saved a few dollars by doing it themselves. I wish that our building codes and permitting system had provisions for "competent amateurs", but how on earth would you do that?

supertrope 4y ago
For simpler jobs like installing an EVSE you can do the grunt work of dragging cable and hire a pro to wire it to the panel and pull permits.
- esel2k 4y ago
  This! I‘ve build a wooden holiday house and we‘ve installed all cables and lamps and plugs and at the end the electrician just verified and approved before connecting the main line.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
> I wish that our building codes and permitting system had provisions for "competent amateurs", but how on earth would you do that? What does this mean? Any “amateur” is allowed to do the work anytime they want (on their own home), and anyone can apply for a permit. They just have to pass the same inspection as everyone else. I do not see why the code (rules) would be different though, the principles of electricity and safety do not change.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  > Any “amateur” is allowed to do the work anytime they want (on their own home) This is not true across all US states, let alone other countries. I currently live in a jurisdiction that does allow home owners to do their own electrical work, but they have to pass a (demanding) exam before being licensed to do so. In my previous home state, home owners were not allowed - even if you did the work, a licensed electrician had to be "seen to be responsible".

whitej125 4y ago

Did you have to break a seal on the meter to get to the meter disconnect? If so, what are the implications of that?

bluGill 4y ago
Call the electric company and they will send someone out to break the seal. After verifying you have the correct permits. If they trust you they will sometimes tell you to break the seal and call them when done.
yboris 4y ago
Last time I had an electrician who was going to be doing work requiring disconnecting the meter - so I called, and it seemed like the easiest thing was for us to just cut the seal and someday later the electric company would come by to replace it. I live in a small town in Michigan; the amount of fuss probably depends on location & density.