5 ms·

Yeah, it had "this comes from industry lobbyists" written all over it. The link to "climate" is so obviously strained. We're talking about a minor energy user,

Yeah, it had "this comes from industry lobbyists" written all over it. The link to "climate" is so obviously strained. We're talking about a minor energy user, and we're not seriously addressing the source of the electricity. We should be talking about electricity generation first. And if we're going to be talking about homes, we should be talking about HVAC, starting with insulation. I know there's the "we can do both!" argument, and the "this will get us ready for when the grid finally switches to renewables" argument (like electric cars). So maybe this makes sense for new construction? But in a world with little nuclear and precious few renewables, it just seems premature, and like a lot of noise directed at the wrong things. Our impulse when we want to "save the environment" should not be to run out, buy a bunch of new shit, and send perfectly good appliances to the landfill.

rayiner 4y ago
> I know there's the "we can do both!" argument, and the "this will get us ready for when the grid finally switches to renewables" argument The problem with "do both" arguments is that it doesn't consider the costs and inconvenience of all those little changes on public support. That's particularly true banning gas stoves, because how people cook is deeply intertwined with culture and tradition. My Bangladeshi immigrant relatives think banning gas stoves is preposterous. You're telling them they need to get a high-end induction range to be able to brown meat as well as the cheap propane stoves they learned to cook on back home. (And somehow get their landlord to install a 240v line in the kitchen of their crappy Queens apartment.) They need to unlearn how their mom taught them to cook, and learn new techniques that don't involve lifting the pan off the induction range, new ways of using pressure cookers, etc. You're telling Mexicans they can't directly heat tortillas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fybeV8uWCQI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fybeV8uWCQI) or char peppers on the flame. You're telling Asians they can't use woks the way they're used to. If you're going to step into a hornet's nest like that, the pay off had better be huge! Otherwise you're just setting the environmental movement's political capital on fire for little payoff.
- johnny22 4y ago
  is anybody talking about banning gas stoves for existing homes? You mentioned "crappy queens apartment", but I didn't think that would require any change at all.
  - chomp 4y ago
    Nobody is talking about banning gas stoves for existing homes. There's lobbyists on both sides of this, and the oil industry is more powerful than the appliance industry. The quote from the CPSC commisioner was "Products that can’t be made safe can be banned." which is making people go haywire. Natural gas stoves can be made safe, and that is by mandating ventilation (possibly automatic ventilation on ignition), and emissions standards.
    - crackercrews 4y ago
      > There's lobbyists on both sides of this, and the oil industry is more powerful than the appliance industry. You forgot the green energy lobby.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Yes: > The Consumer Product Safety Commission, which has a staff of roughly 500, plans to open public comment on hazards posed by gas stoves later this winter. Besides barring the manufacture or import of gas stoves, options include setting standards on emissions from the appliances, Trumka said
    - johnny22 4y ago
      ah. so it would be forcing a change when things break. It would likely be that existing devices would be uhmm "grandfathered" in though right? That's usually the case when it comes to these things.
      - rayiner 4y ago
        The ban may grandfather existing devices, but if it prohibits "manufacture" and "import" you're not going to be able to get replacements. It's like lightbulbs--you don't have to turn in your incandescent bulbs, but you can't get new ones.
D13Fd 4y ago
> But in a world with little nuclear and precious few renewables, it just seems premature Most people aren't talking about banning existing gas stoves in existing homes. But every easily avoidable greenhouse gas emission should be targeted, right now. And the entirety of the infrastructure to bring natural gas to so many homes involves lots of emissions, especially when considering leaks. I really don't care about the "let's wait until x" arguments. All of these things need to be addressed now. Way too many people don't seem to understand the urgency here. We are careening down the highway towards a brick wall, and people are saying "I don't want to take my foot off the gas pedal, because I want to keep making stir fry in my wok." Come on.

rayiner 4y ago

> I know there's the "we can do both!" argument, and the "this will get us ready for when the grid finally switches to renewables" argument The problem with "do both" arguments is that it doesn't consider the costs and inconvenience of all those little changes on public support. That's particularly true banning gas stoves, because how people cook is deeply intertwined with culture and tradition. My Bangladeshi immigrant relatives think banning gas stoves is preposterous. You're telling them they need to get a high-end induction range to be able to brown meat as well as the cheap propane stoves they learned to cook on back home. (And somehow get their landlord to install a 240v line in the kitchen of their crappy Queens apartment.) They need to unlearn how their mom taught them to cook, and learn new techniques that don't involve lifting the pan off the induction range, new ways of using pressure cookers, etc. You're telling Mexicans they can't directly heat tortillas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fybeV8uWCQI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fybeV8uWCQI) or char peppers on the flame. You're telling Asians they can't use woks the way they're used to. If you're going to step into a hornet's nest like that, the pay off had better be huge! Otherwise you're just setting the environmental movement's political capital on fire for little payoff.

johnny22 4y ago
is anybody talking about banning gas stoves for existing homes? You mentioned "crappy queens apartment", but I didn't think that would require any change at all.
- chomp 4y ago
  Nobody is talking about banning gas stoves for existing homes. There's lobbyists on both sides of this, and the oil industry is more powerful than the appliance industry. The quote from the CPSC commisioner was "Products that can’t be made safe can be banned." which is making people go haywire. Natural gas stoves can be made safe, and that is by mandating ventilation (possibly automatic ventilation on ignition), and emissions standards.
  - crackercrews 4y ago
    > There's lobbyists on both sides of this, and the oil industry is more powerful than the appliance industry. You forgot the green energy lobby.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Yes: > The Consumer Product Safety Commission, which has a staff of roughly 500, plans to open public comment on hazards posed by gas stoves later this winter. Besides barring the manufacture or import of gas stoves, options include setting standards on emissions from the appliances, Trumka said
  - johnny22 4y ago
    ah. so it would be forcing a change when things break. It would likely be that existing devices would be uhmm "grandfathered" in though right? That's usually the case when it comes to these things.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      The ban may grandfather existing devices, but if it prohibits "manufacture" and "import" you're not going to be able to get replacements. It's like lightbulbs--you don't have to turn in your incandescent bulbs, but you can't get new ones.

D13Fd 4y ago

> But in a world with little nuclear and precious few renewables, it just seems premature Most people aren't talking about banning existing gas stoves in existing homes. But every easily avoidable greenhouse gas emission should be targeted, right now. And the entirety of the infrastructure to bring natural gas to so many homes involves lots of emissions, especially when considering leaks. I really don't care about the "let's wait until x" arguments. All of these things need to be addressed now. Way too many people don't seem to understand the urgency here. We are careening down the highway towards a brick wall, and people are saying "I don't want to take my foot off the gas pedal, because I want to keep making stir fry in my wok." Come on.