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Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy
- shapefrog 4y ago"Left with" suggests that there was a stable government in the first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Haiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Haiti
- _fat_santa 4y agoI'm surprised the last of the elected officials didn't call for foreign intervention, though I'm sure no country wants to go in there and fight the street gangs for control. I think the US would have the best shot of restoring order (assuming the Hatian govt asked them). I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a show of power. But who knows. I'm Monday Couch Quarterbacking this.
- Armisael16 4y agoThey did, back in October: https://apnews.com/article/caribbean-united-nations-port-au-prince-haiti-antony-blinken-057bf6462ca2b00fe667e93b5289d319 https://apnews.com/article/caribbean-united-nations-port-au-... As you say, no country wants to get involved. The US would be the most capable power in the area, but it’s almost impossible to imagine that ending well.
- throwayyy479087 4y agoEvery single time we do this, it's held up by the rest of the world as evidence of the US being a bloodthirsty colonial power. Another comment said "Haiti refuses to hold themselves to any standards" - I agree, knowing a lot of Haitian-Americans. _Those_ people are lovely, and their stories of what dealing with the government, cops, and local enterprise is horrible. Most do very well here and refuse to ever return. Haiti seems permanently fucked, some say it has to do with the history with France, some with the breakup of the farmland. I'm not sure, but I'm not sending my son to die for their corruption.
- AdamJacobMuller 4y agoWe did a poor job, especially in our most recent situations in Iraq/Afghanistan. Granted, I'm not sure it's actually possible to do this job well, I think there are flaws in the system and human nature which intrinsically make it impossible to do it. See: Abu Ghraib among many other options.
- throwayyy479087 4y agoWe do a poor job because it’s not possible to square the circle with our stated rules of engagement. Russia did a GREAT job with Syria, they’ve managed to nearly end the war. They brutally murdered anyone that was opposed to their puppets and didn’t follow rules about protecting civilians, but they did win. I don’t think purging corruption from Haiti is possible without something similar.
- cafard 4y agoThe USMC imposed order in Haiti in the 1920s. The rules of engagement were pretty damned loose.
- AdamJacobMuller 4y agoSomehow I didn't know about this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ha... The parallels to the current situation are uncanny. I hope we don't make the same mistakes again.
- AdamJacobMuller 4y agoWe could save Haiti by carpet bombing it, killing everyone there and hanging a "free land" sign on the door and telling the Dominican Republic to have at it. I know you're not actually advocating that :) My point is (and I think we largely agree) is that peacekeeping or nationbuilding missions like what we would need to do in Haiti are incredibly difficult, if not impossible. Too permissive and the opposing forces have free reign and take over. Too harsh and you turn the average population against you and they start supporting the opposing forces and now you're just fighting a whole country. It's a lose/lose.
- AdamJacobMuller 4y ago> I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a show of power. The mechanics and operations of a ground war against a civillian population are terrible. "surely the US will dominate because we have tanks and missiles and nuclear bombs!" The net situation seems to me to be that you're fighting in civillian-dense areas against a group which is difficult to distinguish from civillians meaning your operations and people are absurdly constrained while theirs are very open and free. Every mistake you make (and you're going to make mistakes) compounds to make people hate the invaders more (regardless of how altruistic the mission may be) and pushes more people to their side. Every loss you incur on your side erodes your political support back home and hardens your troops against the population (those bastards killed kenny). It's an incredibly vicious cycle which seems unwinnable. Did we forget the lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan so soon?
- somenameforme 4y agoI don't think people really understand or think about what happened in Afghanistan. Like maybe we were just holding back or something. The final drone strike we carried out in Afghanistan is both deeply symbolic and enlightening. We killed a guy, his family, and bystanders including 7 children. The reason is that somebody thought the water bottles the guy was loading into his truck looked suspicious, so that was a good enough reason to kill him and everybody around him - even knowing full well this strike was likely to receive far more attention than average. The army initially claimed they took out a terrorist with a vehicle full of explosives. They blamed any 'collateral damage' on secondary explosive discharges. The excessive scrutiny on this, the final symbolic drone strike, revealed those water bottles were full of water. And not only were the target and his family not terrorists, they were aid workers literally working for a US NGO in the process of trying to get a visa to the US. Nobody was held accountable or punished in any way. [1] The point of this is that we certainly weren't "holding back" or anything of the sort. We were absolutely brutal in Afghanistan, and this went on for 20 years. But ultimately winning an occupation against a civilian population that is both hostile and armed, is basically impossible. Afghanistan now has the honor of being the only country to have defeated both the USSR and the USA. And they did it, for the most part, with "obsolete" weapons and improvised explosives, all while kitted out in robes and sandals. [1] - https://www.newsweek.com/afghan-targeted-us-drone-strike-worked-us-non-profit-sought-special-visa-1629536 https://www.newsweek.com/afghan-targeted-us-drone-strike-wor...
- rayiner 4y agoThat would be a shocking violation of Haiti's sovereignty. It would be colonialism. Civil wars are sometimes a necessary thing in the organic development of a nation. In general, it's not the business of other countries to prevent them.
- noworriesnate 4y agoExactly! For Europeans to develop to the point they could dominate the rest of the world, they took a thousand years to recover from Roman imperialism and develop distinct ethic/national identities. We have to not interfere with the third world and be willing to not interfere for a thousand years for them to sociologically mature to the point they can operate effectively in the first world. The solution to problems caused by imperialism is never more imperialism. The solution to such problems can only come from within those people.
- whythre 4y agoSounds like a good rationale for letting a lot of people die right now.
- sasattack 4y agoThe cia arms both the gangs, why would they fight them
- krapp 4y agoI don't know why you're getting downvoted, in a few decades we'll probably find out the CIA was behind all of this.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- kjs3 4y agoThe US has a problematic history of intervention in Haiti, so we aren't the first choice of pretty much anyone on the ground. And consensus is Haiti isn't where anyone is going to be able to shoot their way to a solution. There have been some negotiations around getting Canada to lead an intervention [1], but that hasn't apparently gone too far. So...it'll get a lot worse for most Haitians before it gets better. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-haiti-intervention-sanctions-1.6658254#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20wants%20Canada%20to%20lead%20any,consensus%20on%20how%20the%20international%20community%20can%20help https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-haiti-intervention-....
- throwayyy479087 4y agoHonestly, it should be the French. If there were a Black African Francophone country that had the spare resources, that would be even better - maybe Algeria in 50 years. I don't think that Haiti wants a bunch of Yankees running around, with our crappy history there.
- kjs3 4y agoYou're probably not wrong, but the French have some crappy history there as well, and haven't had much luck with conflict intervention in former colonies recently (see: Mali). The only certainty is that it's a really complicated problem.
- hulitu 4y ago"Operation Helping Hand "
- panick21_ 4y agoYou don't need to fight a 'ground war' to cause a whole lot of problems. And you risk radicalizing the people.
- ashwagary 4y agoI have a strong feeling Haitians even in their worst position have had enough of US interference.
- throwayyy479087 4y agoCorrect. We should stay out of the whole thing, for the benefit of everyone.
- ss108 4y ago> But who knows. I'm Monday Couch Quarterbacking this. You should start a talk radio program or a podcast or something
- Someone 4y ago> I'm surprised the last of the elected officials didn't call for foreign intervention There was such a call in October last year, but the population doesn’t seem to want an intervention (https://therealnews.com/haitians-reject-us-oas-calls-for-foreign-intervention https://therealnews.com/haitians-reject-us-oas-calls-for-for...). That’s not completely surprising, given the recent UN mission that - seems to have imported cholera into the country from Nepal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Stabilisation_Mission_in_Haiti#Cholera_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Stabilisation_M...) - had UN peacekeepers rape citizens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Stabilisation_Mission_in_Haiti#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Stabilisation_M...)
- ergvgdvgrd 4y agoLike how Baltimore is a law abiding paradise?
- JoeyBananas 4y agoMaybe Haiti the Dominican Republic should be a single country
- nickdothutton 4y agoThey chose completely different futures.
- complianceowl 4y agoAs someone who has a large amount of Dominican family and friends, they would never want that. They are so far apart in terms of their culture, values, standards, and overall way of life. Dominicans want nothing to do with Haiti. Haiti wants nothing to do with setting standards for themselves.
- JoeyBananas 4y agoThat may be true, but I'd also be interested in hearing the best argument for the alternative.
- complianceowl 4y agoIf you find one--that is coming from someone who actually lives in the Dominican Republic--let me know. I'd be interested in hearing it.
- throw_m239339 4y ago> That may be true, but I'd also be interested in hearing the best argument for the alternative. You haven't presented yourself a single argument as to why would the Dominican Republic want to do that at first place, how would that benefit them exactly?
- Valgrim 4y agoThe unification of la Hispaniola under a new regime untied to french colonialism could be a strong foundation for political and economical improvements (if made in respect of both cultures). If Canada ever merges with the nearby Turks and Caicos Islands, they could also help improve the economic status of the area by bringing a nice influx of money. Also Canada has a big Haitian diaspora in Quebec, so there are cultural ties already.
- manv1 4y agoMaybe China wants to dip a toe into great power style politics, so it can see what being on the world stage actually entails? After all, China is looking for friends, and what better way to make friends than to prop up a failing regime? Propping up Haiti can't be more expensive than propping up North Korea.
- senttoschool 4y agoYour comment is so weird. China has not shown colonial mindset in the last few hundred years. Even when it had by far, the highest GDP country in the world, it did not colonize other countries. All China wants is for North Korea to not collapse because that would create a huge humanitarian crisis at its borders. Also, Chinese people are more practical. Leave this problem to the Chinese and they’ll find a way to solve it that does not involve sending its army to Haiti. They’re not warmongers like Americans are.
- samarthr1 4y agoPerhaps you have not visited the border at arunachal pradesh, or aksai chin. Both are indian territories forcibly occupied by the Chinese. We (at India) have fought wars in the past 50 years to protect our land from the Chinese invaders. Furthermore, leaving India aside, let's think about Tibet, the uighur muslims for a moment. The current Dalai Lama is in exile also.
- senttoschool 4y agoI don't think disputed territories are considered as colonial. I think you need to stay objective even if this is you (Indian) vs China. Tibet has been with China since 7th century according to a quick wikipedia search. Nothing I said in my original comment is dissuaded by your arguments. If you think so, then you should study more European colonial (GB colonized India) and Chinese history.
- unmole 4y ago> China has not shown colonial mindset in the last few hundred years. So, the annexation of Tibet and the repopulation of Xinjiang didn't happen? > All China wants is for North Korea to not collapse That must be why they bully their smaller neighbours. > Also, Chinese people are more practical. Right. Like we saw with the spectacular success of Zero-Covid and their refusal to authorise foreign mRNA vaccines. > They’re not warmongers like Americans are. That must be why they keep violating the Line of Control and firing missiles over Taiwan.
- zeeshanmh215 4y agoWhy can US invade Afghanistan and Iraq, but not Haiti? Or is it that they fear they would have to face gang members instead of civilians?
- krapp 4y agoThe US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan for oil and vengeance for 9/11, but Haiti has nothing the US wants.
- stefantalpalaru 4y ago[dead]
- senttoschool 4y agoThe people of Iraq and Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11. It was for oil.
- molotovh 4y agoDo you think that those invasions went well for the people of Afghanistan and Iraq? Do you think there were no armed gangs in those countries? Do you think the U.S. has any prurient interest in repeating or revisiting those operations?
- throwayyy479087 4y agoThe US has lost all desire for war post-Iraq. We're happy to arm Ukraine, but in the 60s? We would have absolutely had boots on the ground.
- skinnymuch 4y agoAmerica got tired of getting its ass handed to it (especially morally) in Korea and Vietnam.
- AtomicOrbital 4y agoHaiti has a unique humanitarian history going back to being the first successful slave revolt and subsequently isolated economically by France and her friends namely USA ... with this comes no major trading partners and poverty ... no blog post on Haiti should leave out this origin story of their misery going back 3 centuries