5 ms·

New software sells new hardware, but not forever

52 points by redbell 4y ago

CyberDildonics 4y ago
I think this might have been seen as insightful a few decades ago.
- criddell 4y ago
  It’s still insightful today. Look at all the great applications out there that can’t simply be “done” and go into maintenance mode. Instead, there’s a need to continue to grow so features are added and it seems that it’s almost inevitable that original fans leave and the software gets fatter and slower and less fun to use. Evernote is the classic example and I think Obsidian is headed down that same path starting with the addition of canvases. There are exceptions though. Photoshop is still pretty relevant and it’s been growing for decades now.
  - CyberDildonics 4y ago
    I hate bloated software too, but I don't understand how this connects to this post.
    - criddell 4y ago
      The part about software being a gas and expanding to fill whatever container you put it in.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    The software doesn't, not for probably 70%+ of user base. The company needs to, because they need to have excuse for selling new versions. How you excuse selling new version if users are using same old features and their use case doesn't need the new niche gadget new version is adding ? (you don't and just sell app as SaaS or other subscription so everyone have to pay you monthly) That's why I think we see the occasional "redesigns for sake of redesigns", designers need to excuse their employment so they make "new" ui, don't even test whether current users area actually faster doing stuff the "new" way, copy some recent design trend and now you have app with "new" UI everyone actually using for longer periods needs to waste time to relearn only to get to same (or worse) efficiency.
scotty79 4y ago
This reads like incoherent rambling around one thought without ever finding any justification for this thought. There are exactly same dynamics between hardware and software in free as in proprietary. The only difference is that free software is not sold directly. But it still is created and still acquires new features that need better hardware.
- sbierwagen 4y ago
  >This reads like incoherent rambling around one thought without ever finding any justification for this thought. That is the house style of The Register, yes.
- livrem 4y ago
  I did not really understand what they were trying to say, but I think the dynamics for free (especially non-commercial, community-driven projects) vs non-free are different The former do not have the same strong need to keep adding stuff beyond what makes sense. I am increasingly happy to see small tools that does what they need to do and can almost immediately move to maintenance-mode forever and just provide important bug-fixes and every now and then add support for new platforms. But what about progress? A fork can do that. Or some competing free tool. Also the link to the article by Wirth at the end of the article, A Plea for Lean Software, was great and I never read that before, so I am happy that The Register linked to it (https://cr.yp.to/bib/1995/wirth.pdf https://cr.yp.to/bib/1995/wirth.pdf).
- AtlasBarfed 4y ago
  I think the overarching point, if there is one, is that with Moore's law and Dennard scaling running out of real-world impact between generations, the churn of new hardware is becoming more forced-consumption / deck chair rearrangement on the software side rather than delivering value / efficiency that utilizes new hardware capabilities. The software industry has been slowing down with worse and worse runtimes, It used to basically be compiles C/C++ type stuff in the 80s/90s, 2000-2010s was JVM/dotNET, and now it is Javascript, although with Typescript the industry can probably get VM performance back to the JVM days. (very coarse paintbrush there of course). At some point the industry will need to wring out optimization from the software stack to get closer to hardware again. The good news is that hopefully dependency churn will reduce, because interfaces may finally become more stable, as will implementations. Because ye gods is dependency churn a headache these days. As I get older it just gets more annoying.
bitwize 4y ago
And this is why you build checks for recent model CPUs into your software, to keep the treadmill going.
1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago
"If it is not already obvious, these are somewhat conflicting goals. The people paying for the bulk of the work are not the most numerous consumers of it, and the desires of the billions of end-users are to a degree opposed to those of the people paying developers to work on it." Having projects become dependent on commercial entities is not always a good thing for everyone. Those getting paid by corporations to work on FOSS might argue it's a good thing. The corporations paying them might argue it's a good thing. The vendors to those corporations might argue it's a good thing. Developers relying on FOSS for commercial purposes might argue it's a good thing. Tech journalists and bloggers might believe it's a good thing based on what they are told. But what about end users. What is their self-interest. It is possible that for some this may not be a good thing. Thus, for end users' benefit, some non-commercial projects are needed. When people online start arguing that FOSS projects need corporate support maybe not everyone reading thinks, "Yeah, that would be a good thing." "For a while, things like NetBSD will come to the rescue, but it can't do so forever." Forever is a long time.
wintermutestwin 4y ago
I think that anyone interested in HW<>SW product models should look to this amazing company as a case study that flies counter to current "wisdom:" https://www.fractalaudio.com/ https://www.fractalaudio.com/ They make the highest end guitar audio processing unit and are constantly providing free SW updates that greatly enhance the unit. No subscription BS.
twobitshifter 4y ago
It’s interesting that he notes the power of a core2duo being adequate. I ran a core2duo laptop for 10 years! When I first got the laptop I was running 3d compositing desktops with compiz. By the end of it’s life I was running xfce to make it usable. Same hardware but the software changed to the point where the computer fell behind.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  My Asus 1215B (from 2009) also seems to have reached its end, even with XFCE it requires quite some patience and being quite spartan in open windows.
sirjaz 4y ago
If you want to sell more hw actually sell software or more specifically allow software to be local to the device. We have plenty of space and we need to utilize that hw.

52 points by redbell 4y ago

CyberDildonics 4y ago

I think this might have been seen as insightful a few decades ago.

criddell 4y ago
It’s still insightful today. Look at all the great applications out there that can’t simply be “done” and go into maintenance mode. Instead, there’s a need to continue to grow so features are added and it seems that it’s almost inevitable that original fans leave and the software gets fatter and slower and less fun to use. Evernote is the classic example and I think Obsidian is headed down that same path starting with the addition of canvases. There are exceptions though. Photoshop is still pretty relevant and it’s been growing for decades now.
- CyberDildonics 4y ago
  I hate bloated software too, but I don't understand how this connects to this post.
  - criddell 4y ago
    The part about software being a gas and expanding to fill whatever container you put it in.
- ilyt 4y ago
  The software doesn't, not for probably 70%+ of user base. The company needs to, because they need to have excuse for selling new versions. How you excuse selling new version if users are using same old features and their use case doesn't need the new niche gadget new version is adding ? (you don't and just sell app as SaaS or other subscription so everyone have to pay you monthly) That's why I think we see the occasional "redesigns for sake of redesigns", designers need to excuse their employment so they make "new" ui, don't even test whether current users area actually faster doing stuff the "new" way, copy some recent design trend and now you have app with "new" UI everyone actually using for longer periods needs to waste time to relearn only to get to same (or worse) efficiency.

scotty79 4y ago

This reads like incoherent rambling around one thought without ever finding any justification for this thought. There are exactly same dynamics between hardware and software in free as in proprietary. The only difference is that free software is not sold directly. But it still is created and still acquires new features that need better hardware.

sbierwagen 4y ago
>This reads like incoherent rambling around one thought without ever finding any justification for this thought. That is the house style of The Register, yes.
livrem 4y ago
I did not really understand what they were trying to say, but I think the dynamics for free (especially non-commercial, community-driven projects) vs non-free are different The former do not have the same strong need to keep adding stuff beyond what makes sense. I am increasingly happy to see small tools that does what they need to do and can almost immediately move to maintenance-mode forever and just provide important bug-fixes and every now and then add support for new platforms. But what about progress? A fork can do that. Or some competing free tool. Also the link to the article by Wirth at the end of the article, A Plea for Lean Software, was great and I never read that before, so I am happy that The Register linked to it (https://cr.yp.to/bib/1995/wirth.pdf https://cr.yp.to/bib/1995/wirth.pdf).
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
I think the overarching point, if there is one, is that with Moore's law and Dennard scaling running out of real-world impact between generations, the churn of new hardware is becoming more forced-consumption / deck chair rearrangement on the software side rather than delivering value / efficiency that utilizes new hardware capabilities. The software industry has been slowing down with worse and worse runtimes, It used to basically be compiles C/C++ type stuff in the 80s/90s, 2000-2010s was JVM/dotNET, and now it is Javascript, although with Typescript the industry can probably get VM performance back to the JVM days. (very coarse paintbrush there of course). At some point the industry will need to wring out optimization from the software stack to get closer to hardware again. The good news is that hopefully dependency churn will reduce, because interfaces may finally become more stable, as will implementations. Because ye gods is dependency churn a headache these days. As I get older it just gets more annoying.

bitwize 4y ago

And this is why you build checks for recent model CPUs into your software, to keep the treadmill going.

1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago

"If it is not already obvious, these are somewhat conflicting goals. The people paying for the bulk of the work are not the most numerous consumers of it, and the desires of the billions of end-users are to a degree opposed to those of the people paying developers to work on it." Having projects become dependent on commercial entities is not always a good thing for everyone. Those getting paid by corporations to work on FOSS might argue it's a good thing. The corporations paying them might argue it's a good thing. The vendors to those corporations might argue it's a good thing. Developers relying on FOSS for commercial purposes might argue it's a good thing. Tech journalists and bloggers might believe it's a good thing based on what they are told. But what about end users. What is their self-interest. It is possible that for some this may not be a good thing. Thus, for end users' benefit, some non-commercial projects are needed. When people online start arguing that FOSS projects need corporate support maybe not everyone reading thinks, "Yeah, that would be a good thing." "For a while, things like NetBSD will come to the rescue, but it can't do so forever." Forever is a long time.

wintermutestwin 4y ago

I think that anyone interested in HW<>SW product models should look to this amazing company as a case study that flies counter to current "wisdom:" https://www.fractalaudio.com/ https://www.fractalaudio.com/ They make the highest end guitar audio processing unit and are constantly providing free SW updates that greatly enhance the unit. No subscription BS.

twobitshifter 4y ago

It’s interesting that he notes the power of a core2duo being adequate. I ran a core2duo laptop for 10 years! When I first got the laptop I was running 3d compositing desktops with compiz. By the end of it’s life I was running xfce to make it usable. Same hardware but the software changed to the point where the computer fell behind.

pjmlp 4y ago
My Asus 1215B (from 2009) also seems to have reached its end, even with XFCE it requires quite some patience and being quite spartan in open windows.

sirjaz 4y ago

If you want to sell more hw actually sell software or more specifically allow software to be local to the device. We have plenty of space and we need to utilize that hw.