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Yes. Wayland is a display protocol, not a general-purpose IPC. Hence it must contain access control interfaces for buffers. Only the compositor has access to t

by sprash 4y ago

Yes. Wayland is a display protocol, not a general-purpose IPC. Hence it must contain access control interfaces for buffers. Only the compositor has access to the composited image therefore is the only program able to make screenshots and full screen sharing. Furthermore, efficient sharing of single application windows is only possible with direct memory access to the buffer which also is something the compositor does/has. The Display protocol is the only sensible place to negotiate access to GPU resources.

QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
>The Display protocol is the only sensible place to negotiate access to GPU resources. No, GPU resources can come from any number of other places. That's literally the purpose of direct rendering. Any applications using GPU compute can produce them without requiring a connection to the display server. There's no reason to put that in Wayland or restrict it to the compositor. There's already a much better protocol for sharing GPU buffers: Pipewire. Dbus is only there to act as the glue between a Wayland compositor and Pipewire.
- sprash 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
    No, with direct rendering the display server uses the same API as any other process that uses the GPU. The way to fix stuttering is to fix scheduling in the kernel. XGetImage is comparing apples to oranges. That doesn't use the GPU at all, that does a copy into main memory. Pipewire is complicated because it has to handle format negotiation and conversion and audio support and a lot of other things that make sense for generically transferring video between processes but are outside the scope of the display server. Can you please knock off the conspiracy theories and flames? What are you hoping to accomplish by hurting people like this on the internet?
    - sprash 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - tadfisher 4y ago
        > The whole ecosystem is garbage and is either conceived by complete moronic retards or with the purpose of sabotage. The latter is more likely, nobody can be that stupid. > This exactly the behaviour that I would expect from Wayland apologists, though. Your arguments are obviously wrong and pointless and the best thing you can come up with is shaming other people into self censorship. Yeah, I'm going to shame you for that. That kind of language isn't going to convince anyone, and it's actively harmful. Please stop.
      - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
        I didn't tell you what to say. I asked you nicely. Notice I used the word "please." You can make all the arguments against Wayland you want. Promoting baseless conspiracy theories and verbal abuse calling other people morons doesn't help get your argument across. It weakens your point. You're just hurting people as well as hurting your own argument by making these comments.
  - wtay 4y ago
    Hi, I'm maybe one of those moronic retards you talk about. Please, please help us out! The world is eagerly awaiting your super non-garbage solutions. Please show us the way... You could be a hero!
    - sprash 4y ago
      The Solution is very simple: 1. Scrap everything you have done so far and start over. 2. Use tried and tested engineering principles as basis for your development philosophy (such as "mechanism, not policy" or "Keep It Simple Stupid"). 3. Choose the right target audience. The target audience of the FOSS-Desktop are neither car entertainment systems, nor Android consumer users that potentially download malware everyday. Your target audience are power users and developers that know what they are doing. If you don't agree, go work for a car manufacturer, work as an Android developer or do something else, just stay away from the FOSS-Desktop. 4. Do what developers and power users need! Just some examples: use simple and stable interfaces, use non-opaque low-level abstractions, standardize often used functionality, avoid redundant standards, don't litter my pstree with pointless daemons, use existing mechanism provided by the OS, use clear text for low bandwidth IPC, keep dependency trees as small as possible, keep build dependencies as small as possible, look at Plan9 as inspiration instead of Windows and MacOS.
      - wtay 4y ago
        Awesome plan!
      - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
        Wayland already meets all those points. And Plan9 doesn't use either X11 or Wayland. Why don't you take your own advice and switch to Plan9 if Linux is causing you problems? I'll also point out that your statement about being only for developers and power users is untrue. There are plenty of good "newbie" distros like Ubuntu and Mint.

by sprash 4y ago

QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago

>The Display protocol is the only sensible place to negotiate access to GPU resources. No, GPU resources can come from any number of other places. That's literally the purpose of direct rendering. Any applications using GPU compute can produce them without requiring a connection to the display server. There's no reason to put that in Wayland or restrict it to the compositor. There's already a much better protocol for sharing GPU buffers: Pipewire. Dbus is only there to act as the glue between a Wayland compositor and Pipewire.

sprash 4y ago
[flagged]
- QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
  No, with direct rendering the display server uses the same API as any other process that uses the GPU. The way to fix stuttering is to fix scheduling in the kernel. XGetImage is comparing apples to oranges. That doesn't use the GPU at all, that does a copy into main memory. Pipewire is complicated because it has to handle format negotiation and conversion and audio support and a lot of other things that make sense for generically transferring video between processes but are outside the scope of the display server. Can you please knock off the conspiracy theories and flames? What are you hoping to accomplish by hurting people like this on the internet?
  - sprash 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - tadfisher 4y ago
      > The whole ecosystem is garbage and is either conceived by complete moronic retards or with the purpose of sabotage. The latter is more likely, nobody can be that stupid. > This exactly the behaviour that I would expect from Wayland apologists, though. Your arguments are obviously wrong and pointless and the best thing you can come up with is shaming other people into self censorship. Yeah, I'm going to shame you for that. That kind of language isn't going to convince anyone, and it's actively harmful. Please stop.
    - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
      I didn't tell you what to say. I asked you nicely. Notice I used the word "please." You can make all the arguments against Wayland you want. Promoting baseless conspiracy theories and verbal abuse calling other people morons doesn't help get your argument across. It weakens your point. You're just hurting people as well as hurting your own argument by making these comments.
- wtay 4y ago
  Hi, I'm maybe one of those moronic retards you talk about. Please, please help us out! The world is eagerly awaiting your super non-garbage solutions. Please show us the way... You could be a hero!
  - sprash 4y ago
    The Solution is very simple: 1. Scrap everything you have done so far and start over. 2. Use tried and tested engineering principles as basis for your development philosophy (such as "mechanism, not policy" or "Keep It Simple Stupid"). 3. Choose the right target audience. The target audience of the FOSS-Desktop are neither car entertainment systems, nor Android consumer users that potentially download malware everyday. Your target audience are power users and developers that know what they are doing. If you don't agree, go work for a car manufacturer, work as an Android developer or do something else, just stay away from the FOSS-Desktop. 4. Do what developers and power users need! Just some examples: use simple and stable interfaces, use non-opaque low-level abstractions, standardize often used functionality, avoid redundant standards, don't litter my pstree with pointless daemons, use existing mechanism provided by the OS, use clear text for low bandwidth IPC, keep dependency trees as small as possible, keep build dependencies as small as possible, look at Plan9 as inspiration instead of Windows and MacOS.
    - wtay 4y ago
      Awesome plan!
    - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
      Wayland already meets all those points. And Plan9 doesn't use either X11 or Wayland. Why don't you take your own advice and switch to Plan9 if Linux is causing you problems? I'll also point out that your statement about being only for developers and power users is untrue. There are plenty of good "newbie" distros like Ubuntu and Mint.