4 ms·

I think there were legitimate concerns about mercury in CFLs. But I do remember some people in the media who were more passionate than they were coherent.

giantg2 4y ago
Other people had concerns about appearance for exposed bulbs, cold temp operation, etc. People who don't like mandates focus on edge cases (sometimes legitimately). If something is really better, then I should have a natural incentive to switch. I don't like stuff being forced. As someone else said, better vent hoods could be an alternative solution.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Vent hoods with a gas stove are a mixed bag. Especially if you have a downdraft cooktop. The air movement sucks a tremendous amount of heat away from the burners, it makes a noticeable difference on how much heat makes it into the pan.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    And they're rarely used while cooking, are largely ineffective when they are used since the aesthetics of a proper range hood are incompatible with 'design', and add a ton of cost as insulation/air-sealing becomes better since you need to add make-up air if you're running a vent moving a lot of CFM in a 'tight' house. Vents that move a lot of CFM are also really problematic in remodels since they can cause backdrafting of other gas appliances. Building Science had gas stoves figured out awhile ago, they're just incompatible with an efficient / high quality home. https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/hvac/makeup-air-for-kitchen-range-hoods_o https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/hvac/makeup-air-for-kitchen...
    - giantg2 4y ago
      On the contrary, professional stainless vent hoods are in style these days. But yeah, the ones I know are mostly in larger homes.
      - mikeyouse 4y ago
        The problem with vent hoods isn't the material, it's how close and how large they need to be in order to be effective. Most people use the front burners since they're way more convenient, but for a vent hood to capture the combustion byproducts, it needs to extend past the burner in all directions and be fairly close to the surface -- nobody has their vent hood sticking 12" proud of their stove, even in high-end kitchens. And nobody building a nice kitchen is only putting their vent 24" above the stove where they'd be most effective. Compare a fume hood you'd find in a lab where they actually care about keeping the fumes controlled: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_hood#/media/File:Fume_hood.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_hood#/media/File:Fume_hoo... Vs. a random high-end kitchen with what appears to be a $10k gas range: https://www.hopedalebuilders.com/hubfs/Featured%20Images%20-%20Our%20Work%20Page/Murphy%20Kitchen%20Renovation/MurphyHome.jpg https://www.hopedalebuilders.com/hubfs/Featured%20Images%20-... How often do you think they use that hood while cooking? At what power level? And what percentage of pollutants are caught by that hood? Heck, even compare it to a commercial kitchen: https://lirp.cdn-website.com/5537b4455a5e43849c5f981982bb4823/dms3rep/multi/opt/ThinkstockPhotos-466608858-640w.jpg https://lirp.cdn-website.com/5537b4455a5e43849c5f981982bb482... Hoods are massive, run the entire time, are designed to pull a blanked of air past the burners into the room, and they extend well past the pollution sources on the sides.
        giantg2 4y ago
        I see you're comparing designs. I'd rather see test data for air quality. The hoods I was talking about did actually extend past the footprint of the stove. Granted they were closer to 3' above vs 2' above. I'd still imagine it works pretty well. Of course fume hoods and gloveboxes work better - typically you're dealing with stuff that is more dangerous.
        4y ago
- marmetio 4y ago
  The government accepts public comment for regulation changes, as they should since the public is a stakeholder. But there's no standing to argue against the concept of a mandate in general. The government regulates public utilities, and they can make rules about the products companies sell that interface with the utility. They're not telling you personally to unplug your incandescent bulbs. (USA-specific)
  - giantg2 4y ago
    It's not about being against mandates in general. It's about being against mandates that ignore alternatives, or simply don't work in certain scenarios.
    - marmetio 4y ago
      Ah, I see. I think the rules just say what the minimum efficiency should be. It's up to industry to develop alternatives and invent solutions for the new edge cases, which doesn't always happen quickly.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        Sure, but if you intentionally set that so that specific categories of products can't meet it, then it's a defacto ban. It's a pretty common practice with government - if they don't have the power to outright ban something, they add restrictions or roundabout bans until nobody wants to deal with the headache. I'll probably buy spare halogens for my basement before the ban takes effect. Dimmable PAR style LED are expensive and can interfere with my HAM radio reception without a lot of trial and error on brand.
        marmetio 4y ago
        That's true about the de facto ban. I just meant that sometimes there needs to be regulatory pressure. The pressure isn't painless. Either stock up or find a new lamp that has a small business exemption or some other circumvention of the rules.

giantg2 4y ago

Other people had concerns about appearance for exposed bulbs, cold temp operation, etc. People who don't like mandates focus on edge cases (sometimes legitimately). If something is really better, then I should have a natural incentive to switch. I don't like stuff being forced. As someone else said, better vent hoods could be an alternative solution.

rootusrootus 4y ago
Vent hoods with a gas stove are a mixed bag. Especially if you have a downdraft cooktop. The air movement sucks a tremendous amount of heat away from the burners, it makes a noticeable difference on how much heat makes it into the pan.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  And they're rarely used while cooking, are largely ineffective when they are used since the aesthetics of a proper range hood are incompatible with 'design', and add a ton of cost as insulation/air-sealing becomes better since you need to add make-up air if you're running a vent moving a lot of CFM in a 'tight' house. Vents that move a lot of CFM are also really problematic in remodels since they can cause backdrafting of other gas appliances. Building Science had gas stoves figured out awhile ago, they're just incompatible with an efficient / high quality home. https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/hvac/makeup-air-for-kitchen-range-hoods_o https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/hvac/makeup-air-for-kitchen...
  - giantg2 4y ago
    On the contrary, professional stainless vent hoods are in style these days. But yeah, the ones I know are mostly in larger homes.
    - mikeyouse 4y ago
      The problem with vent hoods isn't the material, it's how close and how large they need to be in order to be effective. Most people use the front burners since they're way more convenient, but for a vent hood to capture the combustion byproducts, it needs to extend past the burner in all directions and be fairly close to the surface -- nobody has their vent hood sticking 12" proud of their stove, even in high-end kitchens. And nobody building a nice kitchen is only putting their vent 24" above the stove where they'd be most effective. Compare a fume hood you'd find in a lab where they actually care about keeping the fumes controlled: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_hood#/media/File:Fume_hood.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_hood#/media/File:Fume_hoo... Vs. a random high-end kitchen with what appears to be a $10k gas range: https://www.hopedalebuilders.com/hubfs/Featured%20Images%20-%20Our%20Work%20Page/Murphy%20Kitchen%20Renovation/MurphyHome.jpg https://www.hopedalebuilders.com/hubfs/Featured%20Images%20-... How often do you think they use that hood while cooking? At what power level? And what percentage of pollutants are caught by that hood? Heck, even compare it to a commercial kitchen: https://lirp.cdn-website.com/5537b4455a5e43849c5f981982bb4823/dms3rep/multi/opt/ThinkstockPhotos-466608858-640w.jpg https://lirp.cdn-website.com/5537b4455a5e43849c5f981982bb482... Hoods are massive, run the entire time, are designed to pull a blanked of air past the burners into the room, and they extend well past the pollution sources on the sides.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        I see you're comparing designs. I'd rather see test data for air quality. The hoods I was talking about did actually extend past the footprint of the stove. Granted they were closer to 3' above vs 2' above. I'd still imagine it works pretty well. Of course fume hoods and gloveboxes work better - typically you're dealing with stuff that is more dangerous.
        4y ago
marmetio 4y ago
The government accepts public comment for regulation changes, as they should since the public is a stakeholder. But there's no standing to argue against the concept of a mandate in general. The government regulates public utilities, and they can make rules about the products companies sell that interface with the utility. They're not telling you personally to unplug your incandescent bulbs. (USA-specific)
- giantg2 4y ago
  It's not about being against mandates in general. It's about being against mandates that ignore alternatives, or simply don't work in certain scenarios.
  - marmetio 4y ago
    Ah, I see. I think the rules just say what the minimum efficiency should be. It's up to industry to develop alternatives and invent solutions for the new edge cases, which doesn't always happen quickly.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Sure, but if you intentionally set that so that specific categories of products can't meet it, then it's a defacto ban. It's a pretty common practice with government - if they don't have the power to outright ban something, they add restrictions or roundabout bans until nobody wants to deal with the headache. I'll probably buy spare halogens for my basement before the ban takes effect. Dimmable PAR style LED are expensive and can interfere with my HAM radio reception without a lot of trial and error on brand.
      - marmetio 4y ago
        That's true about the de facto ban. I just meant that sometimes there needs to be regulatory pressure. The pressure isn't painless. Either stock up or find a new lamp that has a small business exemption or some other circumvention of the rules.