5 ms·

This is why vaccine development and pharmaceuticals in general should be a public good, owned by the public sector, priced as a public good.

arcanus 4y ago
This will greatly decrease R+D spending on disruptive new pharmaceutical drugs. The Covid vaccines were developed and deployed by private industry.
- hestefisk 4y ago
  Only because it was underwritten by government balance sheet.
- nhchris 4y ago
  Oxford/AstraZeneca Covid vaccine research ‘was 97% publicly funded’ - https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/apr/15/oxfordastrazeneca-covid-vaccine-research-was-97-publicly-funded https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/apr/15/oxfordastraz... It would be nice to see a similar analysis for Moderna's vaccine, but of course the companies like to keep their cards close to their chest.
  - Grim-444 4y ago
    There's a difference between funding research and funding development and manufacturing. No company would develop and manufacture a drug if they wouldn't make profit of it, no matter how much related research was or wasn't done using public funding.
    - nhchris 4y ago
      > There's a difference between funding research and funding development and manufacturing. The 97% figure from the study is for research and development. As for manufacturing, they would recoup that from selling the vaccine at/slightly above manufacturing cost. As the article I linked states, they didn't like that deal. And the next time they come out with some drug or vaccine, will we also just assume most of the funds were private, until proven otherwise? Why not assume the opposite, and let them prove they're not fleecing us? Are they so trustworthy and benevolent?
    - petre 4y ago
      Then the company receiving public finds for R&D should grand licenses royality free for anyone in that country/union to manufacture the vaccine. You're a Chinese company that wants to produce vaccines? Estabilsh a factory in the country of origin, obtain a license from the original manufacturer and start producing.
- salawat 4y ago
  Somehow, I doubt a bunch of incredibly motivated pharmaceutical researchers are going to be turned out into the streets, and stop doing research because a bunch of yield farmers don't have an instant IWIN moneyprinter anymore.
- I_AM_A_SMURF 4y ago
  lol what? the Covid vaccines were funded by the US goverment (and others).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - SllX 4y ago
    As customers of the vaccine to deliver to their citizenry. You might as well say Microsoft is funded by the US government (and others) because they buy Windows and Office licenses: technically true and also misleading because it’s revenue for a product they sold them for a profit. Those profits fund further R&D into new products, some of which will be sold on the private market and some of which will be sold to governments.
    - dns_snek 4y ago
      Your analogy doesn't hold up. Initial R&D of Covid vaccines was largely funded by taxpayers in addition to advance purchase guarantees and limitation of legal liability to eliminate any risk whatsoever. After the public assumed any and all risk, profits are now going in private pockets. Your analogy is misleading and dishonest. > Since 2006, Congress has appropriated hundreds of millions of dollars that BARDA used to develop the scientific infrastructure to produce vaccines in response to the threat of pandemic flu. Thus, the basic research undergirding the COVID-19 vaccines was largely publicly supported. > Recent estimates indicate that the government spent more than $900 million dollars supporting non-clinical studies and research to accelerate movement of candidate vaccines into clinical trials at companies such as Johnson and Johnson, Sanofi, Merck, and Moderna. > Johnson and Johnson, Moderna, Sanofi, and AstraZeneca together are estimated to have received more than $2.7 billion from the federal government to cover expenses related to human trials. The bulk of money was directed at Phase III trials, which compare new treatments against standard care and where most human test costs are incurred. https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/forefront.20210512.191448/ https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/forefront.20210512.... https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/after-nearly-1b-research-funding-moderna-takes-1-5b-coronavirus-vaccine-order-from-u-s https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/after-nearly-1b-research...
takahisah 4y ago
When was the last time USPS wowed you with their innovations and speed?
- maxerickson 4y ago
  They did a great job distributing rapid tests. Easy website and everything.
- emidln 4y ago
  USPS seemed fine before the last administration's Postmaster General took power and started systemic obstruction. I had cheap and easy priority mail access for whatever I needed and it went anywhere in the US within about 3 days. First Class Letters almost always arrived in the stated window. There were improvements to visibility with a daily email announcing what would be arriving for the day. Since DeJoy took over, I rarely use USPS for personal package sending because I cannot trust that the packages will arrive in the stated time period. I pay roughly 1.5x to 2x with USPS Priority costs for other services, but I don't worry that my mail will simply disappear into the void.
- notwhereyouare 4y ago
  when was the last time the USPS didn't have to pre-fund their pension
- kmos17 4y ago
  Coming from a European country the USPS reliability and speed of delivery is impressive, you have no idea how good you have it for a country of this size. Teller service at the USPS now that is pretty terrible true, but if there is no innovation it’s because congress won’t let it. Why isn’t the USPS offering banking services for example like other postal services do?
  - sneak 4y ago
    It varies wildly with region. Sometimes delivery is not even attempted and a 90 minute counter service wait is literally the only way to get tour package (Harlem).
maxerickson 4y ago
The vaccines are worth some multiple of the new price. Like it would be a good idea for the government to keep buying them for everybody, it would be a good deal. And of course, it's at least possible that their costs to keep vaccines available are higher when people aren't really getting them (US booster uptake is pretty middling, even among older people that get even more benefit out of them).
75dvtwin 4y ago
Can we say the same thing about social media companies ? I would also suggest that 'owned by public sector' does not mean 'public good'. Even when a private corporation influenced/directed/controlled by federal authorities -- it is problematic. I do not know of a political system that can effectively check federal government so that it stays for public good. Money-sponsored or various threatened-by-force election models are not effective at checking that premise.
- klyrs 4y ago
  > Can we say the same thing about social media companies? Gotta be "good" to be a "public good."
- neodypsis 4y ago
  In my country, many of the state-controlled public services (e.g., electricity, water and sewage) are very expensive due to mismanagement. Others, like public healthcare are mediocre (don't scale well), albeit costly. Many of these entities suffer from being exposed to political influence.
  - techdragon 4y ago
    This being the crux of the problem. Obtaining the benefit of state owned/controlled operations for such things without allowing them to be ruined by constant political interference in sync with the routine electoral cycles. A public health system or sewage or electricity is a multi decade resource of benefit to several generations of citizens… but politicians tend to think about the next election not their old age and future generations needs. It really requires and active and engaged citizenry to make proper operation a priority over the normal sort of political pandering.
    - mynameisnull 4y ago
      Depends on the state, sort of like the quality of private companies vary and if you’ve ever lived in a part of you’re own country where the grocery stores are crap and later you move and their very competitive and a comparative delight. However, one has to experience the difference themselves to understand this fact I believe. There are a huge multitude of factors at play. Many of us (me included for most of my life, hell maybe I’m doing it now), tend to over extrapolate how much our own experience is the experience everywhere and that what we see must be fitting some logical rule or trend. Reality is annoyingly more complex than we like.
Ferrotin 4y ago
Why don’t any governments get in that business then? They could distribute it locally but sell the vaccines and pharmaceuticals they develop to foreign countries and make a bunch of profit.
- lapinot 4y ago
  Lol. Because there's hardly any socialist government out there. Basically the same kind of guys that are running these corps are editing all these globalization and privatization international treaties.
moving_sofa 4y ago
Vaccine and pharmaceuticals research are already mostly publicly funded. But the profits are privatized. * Oxford/AstraZeneca Covid vaccine research ‘was 97% publicly funded’: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/apr/15/oxfordastrazeneca-covid-vaccine-research-was-97-publicly-funded https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/apr/15/oxfordastraz... * (US Specific) Most New Molecular Entities (NME) approved by the FDA are derived from public research (I dont know exact numbers)

arcanus 4y ago

This will greatly decrease R+D spending on disruptive new pharmaceutical drugs. The Covid vaccines were developed and deployed by private industry.

hestefisk 4y ago
Only because it was underwritten by government balance sheet.
nhchris 4y ago
Oxford/AstraZeneca Covid vaccine research ‘was 97% publicly funded’ - https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/apr/15/oxfordastrazeneca-covid-vaccine-research-was-97-publicly-funded https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/apr/15/oxfordastraz... It would be nice to see a similar analysis for Moderna's vaccine, but of course the companies like to keep their cards close to their chest.
- Grim-444 4y ago
  There's a difference between funding research and funding development and manufacturing. No company would develop and manufacture a drug if they wouldn't make profit of it, no matter how much related research was or wasn't done using public funding.
  - nhchris 4y ago
    > There's a difference between funding research and funding development and manufacturing. The 97% figure from the study is for research and development. As for manufacturing, they would recoup that from selling the vaccine at/slightly above manufacturing cost. As the article I linked states, they didn't like that deal. And the next time they come out with some drug or vaccine, will we also just assume most of the funds were private, until proven otherwise? Why not assume the opposite, and let them prove they're not fleecing us? Are they so trustworthy and benevolent?
  - petre 4y ago
    Then the company receiving public finds for R&D should grand licenses royality free for anyone in that country/union to manufacture the vaccine. You're a Chinese company that wants to produce vaccines? Estabilsh a factory in the country of origin, obtain a license from the original manufacturer and start producing.
salawat 4y ago
Somehow, I doubt a bunch of incredibly motivated pharmaceutical researchers are going to be turned out into the streets, and stop doing research because a bunch of yield farmers don't have an instant IWIN moneyprinter anymore.
I_AM_A_SMURF 4y ago
lol what? the Covid vaccines were funded by the US goverment (and others).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- SllX 4y ago
  As customers of the vaccine to deliver to their citizenry. You might as well say Microsoft is funded by the US government (and others) because they buy Windows and Office licenses: technically true and also misleading because it’s revenue for a product they sold them for a profit. Those profits fund further R&D into new products, some of which will be sold on the private market and some of which will be sold to governments.
  - dns_snek 4y ago
    Your analogy doesn't hold up. Initial R&D of Covid vaccines was largely funded by taxpayers in addition to advance purchase guarantees and limitation of legal liability to eliminate any risk whatsoever. After the public assumed any and all risk, profits are now going in private pockets. Your analogy is misleading and dishonest. > Since 2006, Congress has appropriated hundreds of millions of dollars that BARDA used to develop the scientific infrastructure to produce vaccines in response to the threat of pandemic flu. Thus, the basic research undergirding the COVID-19 vaccines was largely publicly supported. > Recent estimates indicate that the government spent more than $900 million dollars supporting non-clinical studies and research to accelerate movement of candidate vaccines into clinical trials at companies such as Johnson and Johnson, Sanofi, Merck, and Moderna. > Johnson and Johnson, Moderna, Sanofi, and AstraZeneca together are estimated to have received more than $2.7 billion from the federal government to cover expenses related to human trials. The bulk of money was directed at Phase III trials, which compare new treatments against standard care and where most human test costs are incurred. https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/forefront.20210512.191448/ https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/forefront.20210512.... https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/after-nearly-1b-research-funding-moderna-takes-1-5b-coronavirus-vaccine-order-from-u-s https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/after-nearly-1b-research...

takahisah 4y ago

When was the last time USPS wowed you with their innovations and speed?

maxerickson 4y ago
They did a great job distributing rapid tests. Easy website and everything.
emidln 4y ago
USPS seemed fine before the last administration's Postmaster General took power and started systemic obstruction. I had cheap and easy priority mail access for whatever I needed and it went anywhere in the US within about 3 days. First Class Letters almost always arrived in the stated window. There were improvements to visibility with a daily email announcing what would be arriving for the day. Since DeJoy took over, I rarely use USPS for personal package sending because I cannot trust that the packages will arrive in the stated time period. I pay roughly 1.5x to 2x with USPS Priority costs for other services, but I don't worry that my mail will simply disappear into the void.
notwhereyouare 4y ago
when was the last time the USPS didn't have to pre-fund their pension
kmos17 4y ago
Coming from a European country the USPS reliability and speed of delivery is impressive, you have no idea how good you have it for a country of this size. Teller service at the USPS now that is pretty terrible true, but if there is no innovation it’s because congress won’t let it. Why isn’t the USPS offering banking services for example like other postal services do?
- sneak 4y ago
  It varies wildly with region. Sometimes delivery is not even attempted and a 90 minute counter service wait is literally the only way to get tour package (Harlem).

maxerickson 4y ago

The vaccines are worth some multiple of the new price. Like it would be a good idea for the government to keep buying them for everybody, it would be a good deal. And of course, it's at least possible that their costs to keep vaccines available are higher when people aren't really getting them (US booster uptake is pretty middling, even among older people that get even more benefit out of them).

75dvtwin 4y ago

Can we say the same thing about social media companies ? I would also suggest that 'owned by public sector' does not mean 'public good'. Even when a private corporation influenced/directed/controlled by federal authorities -- it is problematic. I do not know of a political system that can effectively check federal government so that it stays for public good. Money-sponsored or various threatened-by-force election models are not effective at checking that premise.

klyrs 4y ago
> Can we say the same thing about social media companies? Gotta be "good" to be a "public good."
neodypsis 4y ago
In my country, many of the state-controlled public services (e.g., electricity, water and sewage) are very expensive due to mismanagement. Others, like public healthcare are mediocre (don't scale well), albeit costly. Many of these entities suffer from being exposed to political influence.
- techdragon 4y ago
  This being the crux of the problem. Obtaining the benefit of state owned/controlled operations for such things without allowing them to be ruined by constant political interference in sync with the routine electoral cycles. A public health system or sewage or electricity is a multi decade resource of benefit to several generations of citizens… but politicians tend to think about the next election not their old age and future generations needs. It really requires and active and engaged citizenry to make proper operation a priority over the normal sort of political pandering.
  - mynameisnull 4y ago
    Depends on the state, sort of like the quality of private companies vary and if you’ve ever lived in a part of you’re own country where the grocery stores are crap and later you move and their very competitive and a comparative delight. However, one has to experience the difference themselves to understand this fact I believe. There are a huge multitude of factors at play. Many of us (me included for most of my life, hell maybe I’m doing it now), tend to over extrapolate how much our own experience is the experience everywhere and that what we see must be fitting some logical rule or trend. Reality is annoyingly more complex than we like.

Ferrotin 4y ago

Why don’t any governments get in that business then? They could distribute it locally but sell the vaccines and pharmaceuticals they develop to foreign countries and make a bunch of profit.

lapinot 4y ago
Lol. Because there's hardly any socialist government out there. Basically the same kind of guys that are running these corps are editing all these globalization and privatization international treaties.

moving_sofa 4y ago

Vaccine and pharmaceuticals research are already mostly publicly funded. But the profits are privatized. * Oxford/AstraZeneca Covid vaccine research ‘was 97% publicly funded’: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/apr/15/oxfordastrazeneca-covid-vaccine-research-was-97-publicly-funded https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/apr/15/oxfordastraz... * (US Specific) Most New Molecular Entities (NME) approved by the FDA are derived from public research (I dont know exact numbers)