8 ms·

A US federal agency is considering a ban on gas stoves

37 points by bluedino 4y ago

cpleppert 4y ago
update: https://www.cpsc.gov/About-CPSC/Chairman/Alexander-Hoehn-Saric/Statement/Statement-of-Chair-Alexander-Hoehn-Saric-Regarding-Gas-Stoves https://www.cpsc.gov/About-CPSC/Chairman/Alexander-Hoehn-Sar... "Over the past several days, there has been a lot of attention paid to gas stove emissions and to the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Research indicates that emissions from gas stoves can be hazardous, and the CPSC is looking for ways to reduce related indoor air quality hazards. But to be clear, I am not looking to ban gas stoves and the CPSC has no proceeding to do so. CPSC is researching gas emissions in stoves and exploring new ways to address health risks. CPSC also is actively engaged in strengthening voluntary safety standards for gas stoves. And later this spring, we will be asking the public to provide us with information about gas stove emissions and potential solutions for reducing any associated risks. This is part of our product safety mission – learning about hazards and working to make products safer."
seanp2k2 4y ago
Why can’t someone make a heat exchanger pot or pan where the combustion air is vented away like we do with gas water heaters and furnaces? It also never sat right with me that there’s a giant tank of near-boiling water in our garage, yet we use a ton more energy to heat up cold water for cooking.
DAVer98 4y ago
[flagged]
- coolbreezetft22 4y ago
  I hope you screenshot comments like this so you can look back on them when you're older and cringe at yourself.
  - lkjaweflk 4y ago
    [dead]
bhaney 4y ago
I suddenly have the urge to install a gas stove
- ezekg 4y ago
  This is the way.
- deadbolt 4y ago
  Damn, sure hope the government doesn't consider a ban on shooting yourself in the foot next.
  - bhaney 4y ago
    Don't tempt me
bilsbie 4y ago
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
- shemnon42 4y ago
  Commerce clause.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    Which is currently interpreted WAY too broadly, and I am looking forward to the modern Supreme Court cutting it back.
    - matthewmcg 4y ago
      What specifically do you think is within the commerce clause authority presently that shouldn't be? Certainly regulation of products that are imported for sale or sold across state lines is within even the most restrictive commerce clause reading.
      - pclmulqdq 4y ago
        Regulation only of commerce between states, not regulation of every single product under the guise that people might want to buy it across state lines. That means that if a local farmer wants to sell hyper-organic meat that doesn't have certain USDA-mandated chemicals, they should be allowed to as long as they don't export it across state lines. That also means that if Pfizer wants to make a drug in my state and sell it here, I don't want the FDA involved. I'll take the bad with the good. While we're at it, I don't see anything in the constitution about banning Marijuana either, I think they do that under the modern reading of the commerce clause too.
      - Kamq 4y ago
        > Certainly regulation of products that are imported for sale or sold across state lines is within even the most restrictive commerce clause reading. Sure, but you're really only mandating 50 factories instead of banning them.
glasss 4y ago
The discussions online about this make me wonder what the discussion around asbestos bans or other similar wide spread materials and appliances was like.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  You don't have to look too far back -- the absolutely unhinged takes about replacing incandescent light bulbs was a good example. Slightly different since there weren't explicit health concerns with the bulbs but it was still wild. Edit: One article from the time - it was a regular bugaboo on Rush for half a decade; https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jul/11/republicans-lightbulbs https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jul/11/republic...
  - marmetio 4y ago
    I think there were legitimate concerns about mercury in CFLs. But I do remember some people in the media who were more passionate than they were coherent.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      Other people had concerns about appearance for exposed bulbs, cold temp operation, etc. People who don't like mandates focus on edge cases (sometimes legitimately). If something is really better, then I should have a natural incentive to switch. I don't like stuff being forced. As someone else said, better vent hoods could be an alternative solution.
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        Vent hoods with a gas stove are a mixed bag. Especially if you have a downdraft cooktop. The air movement sucks a tremendous amount of heat away from the burners, it makes a noticeable difference on how much heat makes it into the pan.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
ivalm 4y ago
Gas stoves are so nice relative to electric stoves. I guess as the electric production mix moves to renewables gas is becoming increasingly worse in carbon footprint.
- larrywright 4y ago
  What about induction cooktops?
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    Still not enough power for cooking food really hot. Electric ovens are already the industry standard for top of the line gear, though. Induction will displace gas broadly if we designe houses to feed them enough amps.
    - goalieca 4y ago
      Really? With induction and power boost on I can preheat a cast iron pan in seconds. It usually smokes so I generally don’t. It’s got insane power delivery.
      - pclmulqdq 4y ago
        Preheating on induction burners is really fast, but that doesn't mean the stove has a high maximum heat. If you want to to wok cooking or anything similar, you basically need gas.
        goalieca 4y ago
        Your average gas stove isn’t going to get any hotter. I’ve played with them at my in-laws including the very high btu ones and my induction beats it on heat and efficiency any day.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      IIRC induction stoves are generally a good bit hotter than natural gas. Something like 200F hotter. Maybe you're thinking of radiant electric?
richwater 4y ago
Yea, the electricity grid fucking sucks so lets ban gas -- people's last hope in a power outage for fresh food or heat. I'll pass.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  This is entirely based on heath concerns -- there's no way to cook with gas indoors that doesn't pollute your home. There are tons of gas furnaces, fire places, and hot water heaters that are "direct vent" so 100% of the combustion air & their byproducts are sequestered outside - perfectly safe to have in your house.
- Marsymars 4y ago
  “Last hope” is accurate, because there are various other options for cooking without power that I’d choose before having a gas stove in my house for that purpose. Generator + induction stove, barbecue, camp/backpacking stove, “smokeless” fire pit with the appropriate accessories.
throwawayacc3 4y ago
Induction > gas any day of the week. Early induction ranges definitely had quality problems, but now even an average induction range is super nice.
- sixstringtheory 4y ago
  Unfortunate typo, I believe you meant “now even”
- skrbjc 4y ago
  In my experience with an induction cooktop over the holidays was that it heated very un evenly, burning food on one side of the pan, while the other side was not cooking at all. It had a terrible user experience (this is obviously specific to that brand), and was not precise at all; either too hot or too cold. It did boil water quickly, though.
  - hyperbovine 4y ago
    This sounds like an issue with either the cooktop or the pan. A proper setup heats completely evenly, that's actually one of the main selling points versus gas.
- hyperbovine 4y ago
  I keep waiting for a company to come along and offer a "pro-style" induction insert that feels like a high-end gas range. I want completely analog controls consisting of front-facing, big-ass, metal, heavy knobs whose only purpose in life is to crank up the heat when you turn them. It should draw 50 amps on a slow day. None of this glass touchscreen crap, no picking a level from 1 to 9, no beeps, no "lock mode" or LCD digits or bluetooth or any of it. This can't be that hard...
  - bayyyls 4y ago
    Some options here may be of interest, the combo of gas and induction has been well received in my household. https://www.fisherpaykel.com/us/cooking/ranges/professional-ranges/ https://www.fisherpaykel.com/us/cooking/ranges/professional-...
throwaway9191aa 4y ago
I couldn't find the study from the publication mentioned in the article. I have a gas stove and I cook all the time. The stove is probably burning for upwards of 20 minutes every single day. Is that really a cause of asthma? If 20 minutes does it, wouldn't cooks (presumably with burning stoves for hours and hours 6 days a week) experience it far greater? Maybe professional kitchens have proper ventilation, so it doesn't matter. I'm assuming the original study would answer some of these questions.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  Here's the original study: https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75 Though there have been several pointing out the problematic nature of stoves relating to indoor air quality.
- nanidin 4y ago
  The article repeatedly mentions childhood asthma specifically. Perhaps because children are more sensitive / smaller / closer to the source?
  - JimtheCoder 4y ago
    "closer to the source?" In general, keeping small kids away from open flames is advisable...
    - nanidin 4y ago
      Their air intake is closer to the point of combustion than a fully grown adult (by height).
      - JimtheCoder 4y ago
        Wouldn't the combustibles rise, though? Legit question - I don't know.
- willio58 4y ago
lkjaweflk 4y ago
[dead]
giardia 4y ago
edit: I was mistaken, OR still hasn't done this, but there's been a big push for it in the past year or two and it's still a dumb idea. They've done this in Oregon to keep carbon emissions down which is a huge mistake IMO. Many rural communities do not have a very reliable grid (I'm in one of them), and the state has done nothing to improve it (this is going to be a big issue when everyone is driving an electric vehicle). This is especially concerning during winter storms when you really need to be able to heat something up. The winter storm of 2019 for instance had me stuck at home for at least two weeks in 3-4 feet of snow. All electrical was down the entire time, pipes were frozen solid despite leaving taps running, and I had to melt snow for drinking water. Most people don't understand just how much energy melting snow consumes until they've done it themselves -- my stove was going all day long, nonstop. Had I had an electric stove, I would have had to rely on my wood stove but many people don't have that option. The only other realistic option would be to rely on a generator, but for an electric range you're going to both need a big ginny and a lot of fuel on hand for it. A better approach IMO would be to legislate better kitchen hoods and ventilation, and to focus on educating people of the hazards of using gas. Also funding a more resilient grid.
- miguelazo 4y ago
  Seems like the better approach to address the problem you raise would be to harden the electric grid, which needs to happen anyway for wildfire safety, extreme weather, etc. State governments and even the feds need to mandate burying cables and upgrading old equipment. Gas lines are not foolproof either, just look at what happened in Texas.
  - korroziya 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - seanp2k2 4y ago
    So long as we have politicians that absolutely refuse to pass any infrastructure bills, for-profit energy companies doing things like NEM 3.0 and somehow making harnessing the free sunlight with rooftop solar a financially non-viable option, and voters that continue to support them despite these things, what can realistically be done?
Entinel 4y ago
Whenever this topic comes up people bring up induction stoves. If you live in an apartment that uses electric then you 99% of the time have a shitty coil electric burner and those are absolute trash compared to gas. Induction isn't a possibility unless you are in the more premium apartments which cost a pretty penny or own your home. The more sensible solution is mandating all gas stoves have well vented hoods. I have lived in at least 3 apartments that had stoves with no hoods.
- verbify 4y ago
  Can't you get a plugin induction? It takes up counter space, but theoretically could be placed on top of the coil burner
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    $70 at IKEA[0]. I use mine for hotpot mostly. 0. https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/tillreda-portable-induction-cooktop-1-zone-white-10493520/ https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/tillreda-portable-induction-coo...
- JshWright 4y ago
  Do you think installing a a properly vented hood is going to be cheaper than an induction range?
  - parshimers 4y ago
    An induction range draws a great deal of current, so it might entail a lot of very expensive electrical work. Many places that have gas appliances weren't designed with the idea of an appliance that can draw 40 amps.
    - numtel 4y ago
      There's a Bay Area startup fixing this by adding a battery https://www.volts.wtf/p/induction-stoves-with-batteries-built https://www.volts.wtf/p/induction-stoves-with-batteries-buil...
parshimers 4y ago
It seems very much like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to ban them outright. Require a fume hood, and if that is not enough then at least just ban it for new constructions or remodels. Induction is nice but I don't think it covers every niche just yet, and gas stoves are very desirable in places where electricity tends to go out due to weather.
willio58 4y ago
Recently I've had an experience with a minor gas leak that's left me afraid to even use my furnace. I have a gas furnace, and I live in a rental. The furnace works, but for the first hour of it being on I can smell gas. It's enough that a carbon monoxide detector will go off nearby. One day I told my partner that I've been feeling super groggy and cloudy-headed for a few months, and we narrowed down the time frame to when I moved into my place. Sure enough, I switch to using a small space heater and two weeks in I'm feeling better than ever before. I 100% attribute the fogginess in my brain to the gas leak. It wasn't enough to cause an explosion, but it doesn't take much to cause serious health problems. Here's a great video on the topic by Climate Town, an awesome educator on climate change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX2aZUav-54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX2aZUav-54
- giantg2 4y ago
  It likely wasn't a leak. It was likely that the furnace is not properly maintained, resulting in poor ignition allowing unburned gas and CO. Possibly something wrong with the exhaust too. A leak itself should not make you groggy - gas workers are exposed to fairly high concentrations without issue. However that is a symptom of CO exposure, and your CO alarm triggered...
- sibartlett 4y ago
  That’s not a gas leak. That’s a faulty furnace that needs fixing ASAP, you should notify your landlord right away. Carbon monoxide is caused by poor combustion.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Unburned natural gas is not just a little stinky, it is profoundly nasty. Way, way, way before you could get enough concentration to hurt you, or blow something up, you'd be vacating the premises. Mercaptan is really strong stuff. Like someone else mentioned, you probably had a malfunctioning furnace. Your symptoms match CO poisoning, and carbon monoxide sensors don't usually detect natural gas leaks -- it's a different molecule entirely.
kyleblarson 4y ago
They'll have to come and take my propane lacanche stove / oven. I live in a very rural mountain area and need to be able to cook when the power goes out. I've been looking into installing a backup generator but they are very expensive and getting an electrician to return a call is like winning the lottery. I have a cutover switch so I can run my well pumps off a small honda generator when the power goes out but without my stove that isn't much use.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I doubt very much anyone is looking to make people switch existing appliances. That's never how it works. First they'll make it illegal to sell new ones. Second, if they really want to get wild, they'll make it illegal to sell a house that has a gas stove. That isn't terribly likely, but there is precedent. In no case are they going to come knock on your door...
  - macinjosh 4y ago
    So once the law goes into effect no more people can build a rural home?
    - kyleblarson 4y ago
      My gas stove identifies as electric.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      YMMV but most people I know who live in a rural area have electric. Having a gas stove means maintaining a propane tank. If you really want a gas furnace that might be worth it, and higher end rural homes certainly do, but just about every older/non-wealthy rural house I know of relies more on wood stoves, cadet heaters, and electric ranges.
jmyeet 4y ago
If gas stoves are a respiratory risk, why aren't all chefs (and other restaurant workers and possibly even patrons) overrun with such health issues? It could be an issue of ventilation, as in commercial kitchens generally have industrial-grade ventilators (by necessity). I imagine the standards for residential kitchens are a lot more lax. If a link can be found, wouldn't then the issue be one of a gas stove requiring sufficient ventilation rather than banning them outright? Gas stoves generally work when there's no power and that's a huge issue for a lot of people. The standard for outright banning gas stoves should be incredibly high.
- jcadam 4y ago
  I wouldn't be too surprised to find lobbyists from appliance manufacturers and utilities behind this sudden push to ban household gas appliances.
techwizrd 4y ago
I love my gas stove, although I've been interested in a precision induction stove. As a statistician, I'd be really interested in digging into this statistic: > A December 2022 study in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health found that indoor gas stove usage is associated with an increased risk of current asthma among children. The study found that almost 13% of current childhood asthma in the US is attributable to gas stove use. https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75 I read the article (4 pages) and it doesn't seem obviously flawed, but the data is very limited and only for 2019. There also isn't really enough information to reproduce the analysis. I hope the CPSC would base their considerations on a larger, more in-depth study (perhaps over time?)
- giantg2 4y ago
  I also wonder what asthma rates were over time. For example, as gas use declined over decades, did asthma rates also?
dang 4y ago
Recent: U.S. safety agency to consider ban on gas stoves amid health fears - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34310218 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34310218 - Jan 2023 (210 comments) Related: I measured the pollution from my gas stove - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34316613 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34316613 - Jan 2023 (199 comments) Gas stoves are more hazardous than we’ve been led to believe (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946 - June 2022 (122 comments) What a gas stove ban means for restaurants - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31603850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31603850 - June 2022 (592 comments) My best estimate is gas stoves decrease life expectancy by 53 days on average - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30275953 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30275953 - Feb 2022 (117 comments) How bad is my gas stove? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935939 - Jan 2022 (520 comments) Cities try to phase out gas stoves but cooks are pushing back - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874912 - July 2021 (481 comments) Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers of gas stoves - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25332332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25332332 - Dec 2020 (343 comments)
obpe 4y ago
It's funny to me how people compare how hot each type of stove gets. Even when I sear a steak, and I like my steaks blue, I barely go above medium on my gas range. Imo, the best thing about gas is the continuous nature of the output and significantly greater range of temperatures gas can hit, ie much lower than electric and induction. I think it is imperative you have a proper ventilation. I don't like banning things, and think that mandating proper ventilation would be akin anyway, but given it would reduce carbon emissions and fire risk maybe it does make sense for an outright ban. Honestly, "for the children" is the weakest argument for the ban.
- qbrass 4y ago
  People harp about maximum BTUs like they need a flame capable of cutting steel or something, but the point is having more burner surface to distribute the flame over a larger area, and not about the maximum heat output of each burner.
Overtonwindow 4y ago
Another "city" idea without concern for people who live outside of cities. Electricity is really expensive where I live, but gas is cheap. This idea would seriously hurt the household budget.
- jcadam 4y ago
  I moved away from cities to be left alone, but the city folk still feel entitled to tell me how to live.
incomingpain 4y ago
What's the reasonableness of this? 40% of homes are gas. What % of kids with asthma have a gas range? CPSC report doesn't even mention asthma... Why can't they mandate ventilation? Why a ban? How much is government giving to move away from gas? >a rebate of up to $840 for an electric stove or other electric appliances, and up to an $500 to help cover the costs of converting to electric from gas. That's not bad. Might be able to convert to induction. So really they aren't banning natgas, this is all about getting people to pull trigger.

37 points by bluedino 4y ago

update: https://www.cpsc.gov/About-CPSC/Chairman/Alexander-Hoehn-Saric/Statement/Statement-of-Chair-Alexander-Hoehn-Saric-Regarding-Gas-Stoves https://www.cpsc.gov/About-CPSC/Chairman/Alexander-Hoehn-Sar... "Over the past several days, there has been a lot of attention paid to gas stove emissions and to the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Research indicates that emissions from gas stoves can be hazardous, and the CPSC is looking for ways to reduce related indoor air quality hazards. But to be clear, I am not looking to ban gas stoves and the CPSC has no proceeding to do so. CPSC is researching gas emissions in stoves and exploring new ways to address health risks. CPSC also is actively engaged in strengthening voluntary safety standards for gas stoves. And later this spring, we will be asking the public to provide us with information about gas stove emissions and potential solutions for reducing any associated risks. This is part of our product safety mission – learning about hazards and working to make products safer."

seanp2k2 4y ago

Why can’t someone make a heat exchanger pot or pan where the combustion air is vented away like we do with gas water heaters and furnaces? It also never sat right with me that there’s a giant tank of near-boiling water in our garage, yet we use a ton more energy to heat up cold water for cooking.

DAVer98 4y ago

[flagged]

coolbreezetft22 4y ago
I hope you screenshot comments like this so you can look back on them when you're older and cringe at yourself.
- lkjaweflk 4y ago
  [dead]

bhaney 4y ago

I suddenly have the urge to install a gas stove

ezekg 4y ago
This is the way.
deadbolt 4y ago
Damn, sure hope the government doesn't consider a ban on shooting yourself in the foot next.
- bhaney 4y ago
  Don't tempt me

bilsbie 4y ago

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

shemnon42 4y ago
Commerce clause.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Which is currently interpreted WAY too broadly, and I am looking forward to the modern Supreme Court cutting it back.
  - matthewmcg 4y ago
    What specifically do you think is within the commerce clause authority presently that shouldn't be? Certainly regulation of products that are imported for sale or sold across state lines is within even the most restrictive commerce clause reading.
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      Regulation only of commerce between states, not regulation of every single product under the guise that people might want to buy it across state lines. That means that if a local farmer wants to sell hyper-organic meat that doesn't have certain USDA-mandated chemicals, they should be allowed to as long as they don't export it across state lines. That also means that if Pfizer wants to make a drug in my state and sell it here, I don't want the FDA involved. I'll take the bad with the good. While we're at it, I don't see anything in the constitution about banning Marijuana either, I think they do that under the modern reading of the commerce clause too.
    - Kamq 4y ago
      > Certainly regulation of products that are imported for sale or sold across state lines is within even the most restrictive commerce clause reading. Sure, but you're really only mandating 50 factories instead of banning them.

glasss 4y ago

The discussions online about this make me wonder what the discussion around asbestos bans or other similar wide spread materials and appliances was like.

mikeyouse 4y ago
You don't have to look too far back -- the absolutely unhinged takes about replacing incandescent light bulbs was a good example. Slightly different since there weren't explicit health concerns with the bulbs but it was still wild. Edit: One article from the time - it was a regular bugaboo on Rush for half a decade; https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jul/11/republicans-lightbulbs https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jul/11/republic...
- marmetio 4y ago
  I think there were legitimate concerns about mercury in CFLs. But I do remember some people in the media who were more passionate than they were coherent.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Other people had concerns about appearance for exposed bulbs, cold temp operation, etc. People who don't like mandates focus on edge cases (sometimes legitimately). If something is really better, then I should have a natural incentive to switch. I don't like stuff being forced. As someone else said, better vent hoods could be an alternative solution.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Vent hoods with a gas stove are a mixed bag. Especially if you have a downdraft cooktop. The air movement sucks a tremendous amount of heat away from the burners, it makes a noticeable difference on how much heat makes it into the pan.
      - mikeyouse 4y ago

ivalm 4y ago

Gas stoves are so nice relative to electric stoves. I guess as the electric production mix moves to renewables gas is becoming increasingly worse in carbon footprint.

larrywright 4y ago
What about induction cooktops?
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Still not enough power for cooking food really hot. Electric ovens are already the industry standard for top of the line gear, though. Induction will displace gas broadly if we designe houses to feed them enough amps.
  - goalieca 4y ago
    Really? With induction and power boost on I can preheat a cast iron pan in seconds. It usually smokes so I generally don’t. It’s got insane power delivery.
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      Preheating on induction burners is really fast, but that doesn't mean the stove has a high maximum heat. If you want to to wok cooking or anything similar, you basically need gas.
      - goalieca 4y ago
        Your average gas stove isn’t going to get any hotter. I’ve played with them at my in-laws including the very high btu ones and my induction beats it on heat and efficiency any day.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    IIRC induction stoves are generally a good bit hotter than natural gas. Something like 200F hotter. Maybe you're thinking of radiant electric?

richwater 4y ago

Yea, the electricity grid fucking sucks so lets ban gas -- people's last hope in a power outage for fresh food or heat. I'll pass.

mikeyouse 4y ago
This is entirely based on heath concerns -- there's no way to cook with gas indoors that doesn't pollute your home. There are tons of gas furnaces, fire places, and hot water heaters that are "direct vent" so 100% of the combustion air & their byproducts are sequestered outside - perfectly safe to have in your house.
Marsymars 4y ago
“Last hope” is accurate, because there are various other options for cooking without power that I’d choose before having a gas stove in my house for that purpose. Generator + induction stove, barbecue, camp/backpacking stove, “smokeless” fire pit with the appropriate accessories.

throwawayacc3 4y ago

Induction > gas any day of the week. Early induction ranges definitely had quality problems, but now even an average induction range is super nice.

sixstringtheory 4y ago
Unfortunate typo, I believe you meant “now even”
skrbjc 4y ago
In my experience with an induction cooktop over the holidays was that it heated very un evenly, burning food on one side of the pan, while the other side was not cooking at all. It had a terrible user experience (this is obviously specific to that brand), and was not precise at all; either too hot or too cold. It did boil water quickly, though.
- hyperbovine 4y ago
  This sounds like an issue with either the cooktop or the pan. A proper setup heats completely evenly, that's actually one of the main selling points versus gas.
hyperbovine 4y ago
I keep waiting for a company to come along and offer a "pro-style" induction insert that feels like a high-end gas range. I want completely analog controls consisting of front-facing, big-ass, metal, heavy knobs whose only purpose in life is to crank up the heat when you turn them. It should draw 50 amps on a slow day. None of this glass touchscreen crap, no picking a level from 1 to 9, no beeps, no "lock mode" or LCD digits or bluetooth or any of it. This can't be that hard...
- bayyyls 4y ago
  Some options here may be of interest, the combo of gas and induction has been well received in my household. https://www.fisherpaykel.com/us/cooking/ranges/professional-ranges/ https://www.fisherpaykel.com/us/cooking/ranges/professional-...

throwaway9191aa 4y ago

I couldn't find the study from the publication mentioned in the article. I have a gas stove and I cook all the time. The stove is probably burning for upwards of 20 minutes every single day. Is that really a cause of asthma? If 20 minutes does it, wouldn't cooks (presumably with burning stoves for hours and hours 6 days a week) experience it far greater? Maybe professional kitchens have proper ventilation, so it doesn't matter. I'm assuming the original study would answer some of these questions.

mikeyouse 4y ago
Here's the original study: https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75 Though there have been several pointing out the problematic nature of stoves relating to indoor air quality.
nanidin 4y ago
The article repeatedly mentions childhood asthma specifically. Perhaps because children are more sensitive / smaller / closer to the source?
- JimtheCoder 4y ago
  "closer to the source?" In general, keeping small kids away from open flames is advisable...
  - nanidin 4y ago
    Their air intake is closer to the point of combustion than a fully grown adult (by height).
    - JimtheCoder 4y ago
      Wouldn't the combustibles rise, though? Legit question - I don't know.
willio58 4y ago

lkjaweflk 4y ago

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giardia 4y ago

edit: I was mistaken, OR still hasn't done this, but there's been a big push for it in the past year or two and it's still a dumb idea. They've done this in Oregon to keep carbon emissions down which is a huge mistake IMO. Many rural communities do not have a very reliable grid (I'm in one of them), and the state has done nothing to improve it (this is going to be a big issue when everyone is driving an electric vehicle). This is especially concerning during winter storms when you really need to be able to heat something up. The winter storm of 2019 for instance had me stuck at home for at least two weeks in 3-4 feet of snow. All electrical was down the entire time, pipes were frozen solid despite leaving taps running, and I had to melt snow for drinking water. Most people don't understand just how much energy melting snow consumes until they've done it themselves -- my stove was going all day long, nonstop. Had I had an electric stove, I would have had to rely on my wood stove but many people don't have that option. The only other realistic option would be to rely on a generator, but for an electric range you're going to both need a big ginny and a lot of fuel on hand for it. A better approach IMO would be to legislate better kitchen hoods and ventilation, and to focus on educating people of the hazards of using gas. Also funding a more resilient grid.

miguelazo 4y ago
Seems like the better approach to address the problem you raise would be to harden the electric grid, which needs to happen anyway for wildfire safety, extreme weather, etc. State governments and even the feds need to mandate burying cables and upgrading old equipment. Gas lines are not foolproof either, just look at what happened in Texas.
- korroziya 4y ago
  [flagged]
- seanp2k2 4y ago
  So long as we have politicians that absolutely refuse to pass any infrastructure bills, for-profit energy companies doing things like NEM 3.0 and somehow making harnessing the free sunlight with rooftop solar a financially non-viable option, and voters that continue to support them despite these things, what can realistically be done?

Entinel 4y ago

Whenever this topic comes up people bring up induction stoves. If you live in an apartment that uses electric then you 99% of the time have a shitty coil electric burner and those are absolute trash compared to gas. Induction isn't a possibility unless you are in the more premium apartments which cost a pretty penny or own your home. The more sensible solution is mandating all gas stoves have well vented hoods. I have lived in at least 3 apartments that had stoves with no hoods.

verbify 4y ago
Can't you get a plugin induction? It takes up counter space, but theoretically could be placed on top of the coil burner
- pwinnski 4y ago
  $70 at IKEA[0]. I use mine for hotpot mostly. 0. https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/tillreda-portable-induction-cooktop-1-zone-white-10493520/ https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/tillreda-portable-induction-coo...
JshWright 4y ago
Do you think installing a a properly vented hood is going to be cheaper than an induction range?
- parshimers 4y ago
  An induction range draws a great deal of current, so it might entail a lot of very expensive electrical work. Many places that have gas appliances weren't designed with the idea of an appliance that can draw 40 amps.
  - numtel 4y ago
    There's a Bay Area startup fixing this by adding a battery https://www.volts.wtf/p/induction-stoves-with-batteries-built https://www.volts.wtf/p/induction-stoves-with-batteries-buil...

parshimers 4y ago

It seems very much like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to ban them outright. Require a fume hood, and if that is not enough then at least just ban it for new constructions or remodels. Induction is nice but I don't think it covers every niche just yet, and gas stoves are very desirable in places where electricity tends to go out due to weather.

willio58 4y ago

Recently I've had an experience with a minor gas leak that's left me afraid to even use my furnace. I have a gas furnace, and I live in a rental. The furnace works, but for the first hour of it being on I can smell gas. It's enough that a carbon monoxide detector will go off nearby. One day I told my partner that I've been feeling super groggy and cloudy-headed for a few months, and we narrowed down the time frame to when I moved into my place. Sure enough, I switch to using a small space heater and two weeks in I'm feeling better than ever before. I 100% attribute the fogginess in my brain to the gas leak. It wasn't enough to cause an explosion, but it doesn't take much to cause serious health problems. Here's a great video on the topic by Climate Town, an awesome educator on climate change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX2aZUav-54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX2aZUav-54

giantg2 4y ago
It likely wasn't a leak. It was likely that the furnace is not properly maintained, resulting in poor ignition allowing unburned gas and CO. Possibly something wrong with the exhaust too. A leak itself should not make you groggy - gas workers are exposed to fairly high concentrations without issue. However that is a symptom of CO exposure, and your CO alarm triggered...
sibartlett 4y ago
That’s not a gas leak. That’s a faulty furnace that needs fixing ASAP, you should notify your landlord right away. Carbon monoxide is caused by poor combustion.
rootusrootus 4y ago
Unburned natural gas is not just a little stinky, it is profoundly nasty. Way, way, way before you could get enough concentration to hurt you, or blow something up, you'd be vacating the premises. Mercaptan is really strong stuff. Like someone else mentioned, you probably had a malfunctioning furnace. Your symptoms match CO poisoning, and carbon monoxide sensors don't usually detect natural gas leaks -- it's a different molecule entirely.

kyleblarson 4y ago

They'll have to come and take my propane lacanche stove / oven. I live in a very rural mountain area and need to be able to cook when the power goes out. I've been looking into installing a backup generator but they are very expensive and getting an electrician to return a call is like winning the lottery. I have a cutover switch so I can run my well pumps off a small honda generator when the power goes out but without my stove that isn't much use.

rootusrootus 4y ago
I doubt very much anyone is looking to make people switch existing appliances. That's never how it works. First they'll make it illegal to sell new ones. Second, if they really want to get wild, they'll make it illegal to sell a house that has a gas stove. That isn't terribly likely, but there is precedent. In no case are they going to come knock on your door...
- macinjosh 4y ago
  So once the law goes into effect no more people can build a rural home?
  - kyleblarson 4y ago
    My gas stove identifies as electric.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    YMMV but most people I know who live in a rural area have electric. Having a gas stove means maintaining a propane tank. If you really want a gas furnace that might be worth it, and higher end rural homes certainly do, but just about every older/non-wealthy rural house I know of relies more on wood stoves, cadet heaters, and electric ranges.

jmyeet 4y ago

If gas stoves are a respiratory risk, why aren't all chefs (and other restaurant workers and possibly even patrons) overrun with such health issues? It could be an issue of ventilation, as in commercial kitchens generally have industrial-grade ventilators (by necessity). I imagine the standards for residential kitchens are a lot more lax. If a link can be found, wouldn't then the issue be one of a gas stove requiring sufficient ventilation rather than banning them outright? Gas stoves generally work when there's no power and that's a huge issue for a lot of people. The standard for outright banning gas stoves should be incredibly high.

jcadam 4y ago
I wouldn't be too surprised to find lobbyists from appliance manufacturers and utilities behind this sudden push to ban household gas appliances.

techwizrd 4y ago

I love my gas stove, although I've been interested in a precision induction stove. As a statistician, I'd be really interested in digging into this statistic: > A December 2022 study in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health found that indoor gas stove usage is associated with an increased risk of current asthma among children. The study found that almost 13% of current childhood asthma in the US is attributable to gas stove use. https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75 I read the article (4 pages) and it doesn't seem obviously flawed, but the data is very limited and only for 2019. There also isn't really enough information to reproduce the analysis. I hope the CPSC would base their considerations on a larger, more in-depth study (perhaps over time?)

giantg2 4y ago
I also wonder what asthma rates were over time. For example, as gas use declined over decades, did asthma rates also?

dang 4y ago

Recent: U.S. safety agency to consider ban on gas stoves amid health fears - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34310218 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34310218 - Jan 2023 (210 comments) Related: I measured the pollution from my gas stove - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34316613 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34316613 - Jan 2023 (199 comments) Gas stoves are more hazardous than we’ve been led to believe (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946 - June 2022 (122 comments) What a gas stove ban means for restaurants - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31603850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31603850 - June 2022 (592 comments) My best estimate is gas stoves decrease life expectancy by 53 days on average - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30275953 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30275953 - Feb 2022 (117 comments) How bad is my gas stove? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935939 - Jan 2022 (520 comments) Cities try to phase out gas stoves but cooks are pushing back - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874912 - July 2021 (481 comments) Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers of gas stoves - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25332332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25332332 - Dec 2020 (343 comments)

obpe 4y ago

It's funny to me how people compare how hot each type of stove gets. Even when I sear a steak, and I like my steaks blue, I barely go above medium on my gas range. Imo, the best thing about gas is the continuous nature of the output and significantly greater range of temperatures gas can hit, ie much lower than electric and induction. I think it is imperative you have a proper ventilation. I don't like banning things, and think that mandating proper ventilation would be akin anyway, but given it would reduce carbon emissions and fire risk maybe it does make sense for an outright ban. Honestly, "for the children" is the weakest argument for the ban.

qbrass 4y ago
People harp about maximum BTUs like they need a flame capable of cutting steel or something, but the point is having more burner surface to distribute the flame over a larger area, and not about the maximum heat output of each burner.

Overtonwindow 4y ago

Another "city" idea without concern for people who live outside of cities. Electricity is really expensive where I live, but gas is cheap. This idea would seriously hurt the household budget.

jcadam 4y ago
I moved away from cities to be left alone, but the city folk still feel entitled to tell me how to live.

incomingpain 4y ago

What's the reasonableness of this? 40% of homes are gas. What % of kids with asthma have a gas range? CPSC report doesn't even mention asthma... Why can't they mandate ventilation? Why a ban? How much is government giving to move away from gas? >a rebate of up to $840 for an electric stove or other electric appliances, and up to an $500 to help cover the costs of converting to electric from gas. That's not bad. Might be able to convert to induction. So really they aren't banning natgas, this is all about getting people to pull trigger.