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The natural niche that Fortran has found for itself is largely closed-source, non-collaborative. Same with Ada. The tools continue to be developed because compa

The natural niche that Fortran has found for itself is largely closed-source, non-collaborative. Same with Ada. The tools continue to be developed because companies spend enough money on them. They don't really need an open community to survive, and the community doesn't really need most of what these tools offer either. I don't expect anything to change unless there's money to be made in doing so.

college_physics 4y ago
Agree that this the present situation, just speculating about possible future paths that might see fortran become relevant to more people > the community doesn't really need most of what these tools offer either not so sure about that. speaking only about the python universe I could see fortran being an easier alternative to C/C++ for implementing compute intensive stuff and python being the user friendly layer. about the money: it would be no different than other open source computing stacks, so yes, no cigar. the main reason to add another option is potential productivity gains if one could enable more science oriented developers to develop performant libraries.
- deleted 4y ago
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- marmetio 4y ago
  Your example about being an alternative to C/C++ for Python-wrapped libraries is a good one. In fact, that's already mostly how Fortran is used - wrapped. That future is here already, and it looks the way it currently does. > if people are serious about fortran as an ongoing idiom > Development is increasingly a collective endeavour and frequently open source affair I disagree with the premise that these two things are linked. Fortran is alive and well in the closed-source corporate world, and it will continue that way indefinitely. It's used by scientists and engineers, not developers, so it's unaffected by changes in the development world. I think it's cool that people want Fortran to find a broader audience, and I think it would help, but it's not necessary for it to continue being used.
  - college_physics 4y ago
    > the closed-source corporate world ... will continue that way indefinitely the lifespans of corporates is well known to get shorter and shorter. Lean periods, in particular, prompt people to re-examine the economics of various technology choices (The world of HPC is full of such extinction events, Unix workstations disappeared in favor of Wintel etc. Having survived previous events does not guarantee eternal survival). On the other hand the line between "developers" and scientists/engineers will get further blurred and complacent corporates may at some point feel being completely starved of the relevant talent. Just today there was a front page HN discussion about ML augmented PDE solvers. It was not written in fortran.
    - marmetio 4y ago
      Put it this way. If C and C++ stop being popular, they'll still survive anyway. Same with Fortran. You just don't see Fortran as often because it's not a general-purpose language like the other two. You'll also never see Fortran as often because people who write Fortran don't share.

college_physics 4y ago

Agree that this the present situation, just speculating about possible future paths that might see fortran become relevant to more people > the community doesn't really need most of what these tools offer either not so sure about that. speaking only about the python universe I could see fortran being an easier alternative to C/C++ for implementing compute intensive stuff and python being the user friendly layer. about the money: it would be no different than other open source computing stacks, so yes, no cigar. the main reason to add another option is potential productivity gains if one could enable more science oriented developers to develop performant libraries.

deleted 4y ago
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marmetio 4y ago
Your example about being an alternative to C/C++ for Python-wrapped libraries is a good one. In fact, that's already mostly how Fortran is used - wrapped. That future is here already, and it looks the way it currently does. > if people are serious about fortran as an ongoing idiom > Development is increasingly a collective endeavour and frequently open source affair I disagree with the premise that these two things are linked. Fortran is alive and well in the closed-source corporate world, and it will continue that way indefinitely. It's used by scientists and engineers, not developers, so it's unaffected by changes in the development world. I think it's cool that people want Fortran to find a broader audience, and I think it would help, but it's not necessary for it to continue being used.
- college_physics 4y ago
  > the closed-source corporate world ... will continue that way indefinitely the lifespans of corporates is well known to get shorter and shorter. Lean periods, in particular, prompt people to re-examine the economics of various technology choices (The world of HPC is full of such extinction events, Unix workstations disappeared in favor of Wintel etc. Having survived previous events does not guarantee eternal survival). On the other hand the line between "developers" and scientists/engineers will get further blurred and complacent corporates may at some point feel being completely starved of the relevant talent. Just today there was a front page HN discussion about ML augmented PDE solvers. It was not written in fortran.
  - marmetio 4y ago
    Put it this way. If C and C++ stop being popular, they'll still survive anyway. Same with Fortran. You just don't see Fortran as often because it's not a general-purpose language like the other two. You'll also never see Fortran as often because people who write Fortran don't share.