4 ms·

I've been in teams where more than half of the people were, for lack of a better term, quiet bullshitters. Everything was "difficult" and "required analysis".

by Tade0 4y ago

I've been in teams where more than half of the people were, for lack of a better term, quiet bullshitters. Everything was "difficult" and "required analysis". The code mostly worked, but was full of workarounds that would not have been there if someone spent half an hour reading the library documentation. One thing they didn't do though was stick their head out too much as that was too great a risk to their cushy positions. Why do they do that, one might ask? Turns out they're either busy with house renovation or have some kind of engaging hobby which takes most of their time. I had a guy confess that those three hours between 7am and the end of our standup is the only time he works during the day. He was hard to work with because he would do everything to cover his ass should something go wrong.

onemoresoop 4y ago
> I had a guy confess that those three hours between 7am and the end of our standup is the only time he works during the day. He was hard to work with because he would do everything to cover his ass should something go wrong. Three to four hours of deep work could be enough to complete the daily workload. Maybe he was downplaying the other rest of time that didn't feel like he worked at all even though he was in meetings and doing other BS the company required him to do.
- fsckboy 4y ago
  > Three to four hours of deep work could be enough to complete the daily workload... only if you make a case that six to eight hours of deep work is somehow not possible. Perhaps you make a good faith effort to get 6 to 8 but you can't seem to do it, or you're too exhausted after 3 or 4, but you can't simply demand that you should get paid for 8 but you're only going to work for 3 or 4 because that's enough.
  - onemoresoop 4y ago
    > only if you make a case that six to eight hours of deep work is somehow not possible. 6 to 8 hours of deep work is certainly possible but is it sustainable? I don't think so, minds need some slack time, enter a different mode of thinking, etc. For this reason work is chunked into workable amounts which it makes it sustainable as well.
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago
    Unless you are paid hourly I don't see why that should matter even remotely.
- Tade0 4y ago
  His full statement was that he's doing house renovation later in the day instead of work. Another situation: we were estimating tasks and I challenged the estimate for a task he was supposed to do. His reply: "ok, if I'm going to reduce my estimate then you reduce one of yours" Normally I wouldn't care about such things, but my work depended on his and it was hard to make him follow through on his promises.
mjcohen 4y ago
"The company way" from the original "How to succeed in business without really trying." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKC8iPeIvEA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKC8iPeIvEA
annie_muss 4y ago
I must admit, for most of my career I've been a "quiet bullshitter". I start with the best intentions but quickly get into situations that are far too difficult for me so I spend a lot of time covering up my problems with work for fear of being fired. ADHD plays a big part too. So I go to the meetings, I talk the talk at the job interviews and then fiddle with my computer getting nothing done all day. I've gone 6 months or more without shipping a line of production code. My code is generally quite bad and I don't know how to fix it, and now I'm in a more senior position it's too difficult to ask for help for extremely basic programming tasks. My advice: many "quiet bullshitters" want to do better, but lack the tools, support and ability to do so. They're not trying to take everyone for a ride, but they feel backed into a corner with no way out and they can't ask for help without great personal risk (either real or perceived).
- vincnetas 4y ago
  is this identical to "fake it till you make it"? so you climbe too high on carier lader and it's scary up there but you also dont want to climb down, ao you expect someone to come help you stay there. dont take this personally, but such cases make me angry, because most of the time it prevents competent but quieter people to rise, and pushes them away from competent deciasion making.
- redleggedfrog 4y ago
  That is a an interesting insight on BSing and I appreciate you being so upfront about it. Your response is why I like HN so much - you gave me an angle I didn't have to ruminate on.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- carlmr 4y ago
  >I start with the best intentions but quickly get into situations that are far too difficult for me so I spend a lot of time covering up my problems with work for fear of being fired. ADHD plays a big part too. Things can get very difficult very quick if a company has most of their knowledge stored in people's heads, and the main mode of spreading knowledge is meetings. Having little documentation is common Having a high meeting culture makes this work for a part of the company, for a while. But even the good listeners at some point aren't sure enough about their knowledge that they would write about it. Making the problem worse. AD(H)Ders will not be able to process any of this knowledge, because it's all dependent on listening to people. At some point they'll feel ashamed that they are in the project for years now and can't contribute properly. If you do want to stay in this company, this strategy can work to make your life better: 1) Document everything, for yourself. Since you're ashamed of your lack of knowledge write up in private what you do know, or think you know. Since you keep it private nobody will see if you have something wrong. 2) When you need to something, you can test if this knowledge actually works as you wrote it up, you can refine it. 3) Once refined you can contribute it back to the main knowledge base. 4) If you don't know something, and can't find where it's documented, ask people to show you where it's documented. If it's not it's not a bad thing for a senior engineer to ask where it is documented. This saves face, and improves documentation. Also: always ask people to write you emails if they want anything from you. Verbal is worthless.

by Tade0 4y ago

onemoresoop 4y ago

> I had a guy confess that those three hours between 7am and the end of our standup is the only time he works during the day. He was hard to work with because he would do everything to cover his ass should something go wrong. Three to four hours of deep work could be enough to complete the daily workload. Maybe he was downplaying the other rest of time that didn't feel like he worked at all even though he was in meetings and doing other BS the company required him to do.

fsckboy 4y ago
> Three to four hours of deep work could be enough to complete the daily workload... only if you make a case that six to eight hours of deep work is somehow not possible. Perhaps you make a good faith effort to get 6 to 8 but you can't seem to do it, or you're too exhausted after 3 or 4, but you can't simply demand that you should get paid for 8 but you're only going to work for 3 or 4 because that's enough.
- onemoresoop 4y ago
  > only if you make a case that six to eight hours of deep work is somehow not possible. 6 to 8 hours of deep work is certainly possible but is it sustainable? I don't think so, minds need some slack time, enter a different mode of thinking, etc. For this reason work is chunked into workable amounts which it makes it sustainable as well.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  Unless you are paid hourly I don't see why that should matter even remotely.
Tade0 4y ago
His full statement was that he's doing house renovation later in the day instead of work. Another situation: we were estimating tasks and I challenged the estimate for a task he was supposed to do. His reply: "ok, if I'm going to reduce my estimate then you reduce one of yours" Normally I wouldn't care about such things, but my work depended on his and it was hard to make him follow through on his promises.

mjcohen 4y ago

"The company way" from the original "How to succeed in business without really trying." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKC8iPeIvEA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKC8iPeIvEA

annie_muss 4y ago

I must admit, for most of my career I've been a "quiet bullshitter". I start with the best intentions but quickly get into situations that are far too difficult for me so I spend a lot of time covering up my problems with work for fear of being fired. ADHD plays a big part too. So I go to the meetings, I talk the talk at the job interviews and then fiddle with my computer getting nothing done all day. I've gone 6 months or more without shipping a line of production code. My code is generally quite bad and I don't know how to fix it, and now I'm in a more senior position it's too difficult to ask for help for extremely basic programming tasks. My advice: many "quiet bullshitters" want to do better, but lack the tools, support and ability to do so. They're not trying to take everyone for a ride, but they feel backed into a corner with no way out and they can't ask for help without great personal risk (either real or perceived).

vincnetas 4y ago
is this identical to "fake it till you make it"? so you climbe too high on carier lader and it's scary up there but you also dont want to climb down, ao you expect someone to come help you stay there. dont take this personally, but such cases make me angry, because most of the time it prevents competent but quieter people to rise, and pushes them away from competent deciasion making.
redleggedfrog 4y ago
That is a an interesting insight on BSing and I appreciate you being so upfront about it. Your response is why I like HN so much - you gave me an angle I didn't have to ruminate on.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
carlmr 4y ago
>I start with the best intentions but quickly get into situations that are far too difficult for me so I spend a lot of time covering up my problems with work for fear of being fired. ADHD plays a big part too. Things can get very difficult very quick if a company has most of their knowledge stored in people's heads, and the main mode of spreading knowledge is meetings. Having little documentation is common Having a high meeting culture makes this work for a part of the company, for a while. But even the good listeners at some point aren't sure enough about their knowledge that they would write about it. Making the problem worse. AD(H)Ders will not be able to process any of this knowledge, because it's all dependent on listening to people. At some point they'll feel ashamed that they are in the project for years now and can't contribute properly. If you do want to stay in this company, this strategy can work to make your life better: 1) Document everything, for yourself. Since you're ashamed of your lack of knowledge write up in private what you do know, or think you know. Since you keep it private nobody will see if you have something wrong. 2) When you need to something, you can test if this knowledge actually works as you wrote it up, you can refine it. 3) Once refined you can contribute it back to the main knowledge base. 4) If you don't know something, and can't find where it's documented, ask people to show you where it's documented. If it's not it's not a bad thing for a senior engineer to ask where it is documented. This saves face, and improves documentation. Also: always ask people to write you emails if they want anything from you. Verbal is worthless.