4 ms·

Julia is better than Fortran and interoperable with it (in the sense that it’s easy to call Fortran from within Julia).

TheRealKing 4y ago
Fortran is better than Julia and interoperable with Julia and any language. Any language as of today is better than Julia. Currently, Julia is a collection of nerd lies and false promises. Look at the recent Julia Discourse post "What is the status of AutoDiff in Julia"? Then read how gloriously the top response describes the situation. Read a few lines more, and you realize there is yet to be a single AutoDiff tool that works effectively and flawlessly in Julia. "Deny the weakness until we fix it" is a typical speaking pattern among JuliaComputing leaders. There is a good reason for it. JuliaComputing is a for-profit company. They have to find a way to return the stakeholders' million-dollar investments. The easiest way for them is to take a Machiavellian approach rather than being realistic, honest, and fair. I know the nerd culture very well. I am familiar with their denial of their weaknesses and flaws, and their nightmares of being the runner-up. I work with them daily. And JuliaComputing staff is a nerd community from head to tail. For a longer list of Julia's flaws that JuliaComputing pushes under the rug, see https://yuri.is/not-julia/ https://yuri.is/not-julia/ Regarding fairness and honesty, JuliaComputing staff are responsible for >99% of web posts (including HackerNews) that speak highly of Julia and bash any other language, particularly C++, Fortran, MATLAB, Python, R, Rust.
- cbkeller 4y ago
  It seems like you have some emotional baggage involved here. I use Julia every day (for scientific computing). I have never worked with or for the Julia Computing folks, but don't agree with your characterization of them. I like Fortran too, but personally I would rather use Julia if I have the choice.
Moissanite 4y ago
Julia is too different from Fortran for the old wizards to make the switch.
- catach 4y ago
  Seems that most of the time, to be significantly better a language also has to be significantly different.
- leephillips 4y ago
  I’m not a wizard but I’m pretty old. After years of scientific programming in Fortran Julia was very easy to switch to. This is not like switching to a (conventional) Lisp or APL, The syntax is quite familiar; you need not use any part of the type system, until you learn more and want to take advantage of it. You’ll need to sprinkle in a few dots to reproduce Fortran‘s array expressions, in places.
  - Moissanite 4y ago
    How do you get on with package management? That is probably the area where Julia had the most opportunity to trounce Fortran, and yet that is the part of the language I've never managed to get comfortable with.
    - leephillips 4y ago
      The package manager is one of my favorite things about Julia. From its integration with Git to the ability to effortlessly reproduce the precise environment in which any program was run, it’s programming language package management, finally, done right: https://lwn.net/Articles/871490/ https://lwn.net/Articles/871490/
      - Moissanite 4y ago
        Thanks - you inspired me to find the right search term for my issue ("CI/CD in Julia"). Basically, the idea of using the REPL (at all, and particularly for package management) never sat well with me; I was looking for the equivalent of "requirements.txt".
        ChrisRackauckas 4y ago

Fortran is better than Julia and interoperable with Julia and any language. Any language as of today is better than Julia. Currently, Julia is a collection of nerd lies and false promises. Look at the recent Julia Discourse post "What is the status of AutoDiff in Julia"? Then read how gloriously the top response describes the situation. Read a few lines more, and you realize there is yet to be a single AutoDiff tool that works effectively and flawlessly in Julia. "Deny the weakness until we fix it" is a typical speaking pattern among JuliaComputing leaders. There is a good reason for it. JuliaComputing is a for-profit company. They have to find a way to return the stakeholders' million-dollar investments. The easiest way for them is to take a Machiavellian approach rather than being realistic, honest, and fair. I know the nerd culture very well. I am familiar with their denial of their weaknesses and flaws, and their nightmares of being the runner-up. I work with them daily. And JuliaComputing staff is a nerd community from head to tail. For a longer list of Julia's flaws that JuliaComputing pushes under the rug, see https://yuri.is/not-julia/ https://yuri.is/not-julia/ Regarding fairness and honesty, JuliaComputing staff are responsible for >99% of web posts (including HackerNews) that speak highly of Julia and bash any other language, particularly C++, Fortran, MATLAB, Python, R, Rust.

cbkeller 4y ago
It seems like you have some emotional baggage involved here. I use Julia every day (for scientific computing). I have never worked with or for the Julia Computing folks, but don't agree with your characterization of them. I like Fortran too, but personally I would rather use Julia if I have the choice.

Moissanite 4y ago

Julia is too different from Fortran for the old wizards to make the switch.

catach 4y ago
Seems that most of the time, to be significantly better a language also has to be significantly different.
leephillips 4y ago
I’m not a wizard but I’m pretty old. After years of scientific programming in Fortran Julia was very easy to switch to. This is not like switching to a (conventional) Lisp or APL, The syntax is quite familiar; you need not use any part of the type system, until you learn more and want to take advantage of it. You’ll need to sprinkle in a few dots to reproduce Fortran‘s array expressions, in places.
- Moissanite 4y ago
  How do you get on with package management? That is probably the area where Julia had the most opportunity to trounce Fortran, and yet that is the part of the language I've never managed to get comfortable with.
  - leephillips 4y ago
    The package manager is one of my favorite things about Julia. From its integration with Git to the ability to effortlessly reproduce the precise environment in which any program was run, it’s programming language package management, finally, done right: https://lwn.net/Articles/871490/ https://lwn.net/Articles/871490/
    - Moissanite 4y ago
      Thanks - you inspired me to find the right search term for my issue ("CI/CD in Julia"). Basically, the idea of using the REPL (at all, and particularly for package management) never sat well with me; I was looking for the equivalent of "requirements.txt".
      - ChrisRackauckas 4y ago