4 ms·

How hard would it be to build an open source tractor? Pipe-dream or would "Tux Tractors" actually be a doable thing?

by mikece 4y ago

scohesc 4y ago
It'd probably be hard to source parts and equipment - I think farmers are likely to be restricted by emissions regulations/requirements - wouldn't be easy to put a school bus engine into a tractor without some serious carbon/emissions capture, etc. (as an example) I seem to recall (though can't be 100% sure) that farmers are eligible for certain subsidies based on their emissions, etc. - basically shoehorning you into buying these expensive tractors/equipment as they're the only companies that can afford to follow those emissions standards - it sucks for farmers, but I can understand the benefit to the planet.
- mikece 4y ago
  School buses have pretty common diesel engines similar to what are used in farm tractors. For larger tractors I suspect the engines are more similar to those used in 18-wheeler trucks and are merely scaled up versions of the Cummins, Cat, or Detroit diesel engines. Perhaps the right question to ask isn't about the whole tractor being open spec but the engine as that's likely one thing a start-up tractor maker would have someone else build for them rather than doing it themselves.
  - boltzmann-brain 4y ago
    Sorry, but: you shouldn't be imagining that stuff. Your competences as a programmer are nowhere near building farm tractors - there's nothing within your experience you can base this on.
    - mikece 4y ago
      The concept of fungible modules can apply to both tractors and enterprise software. Engines from Cummins, Cat, Detroit, Mercedes, etc; electrical systems from Bosch, Panasonic, Raytheon, or Seimens... just like we can swap email sending engines or cloud hosting providers. It's the details of completing the design and assembly of the tractor where I would go back to a dark cubicle and work on the open source ECM software.
jaggederest 4y ago
Not that hard, but it wouldn't have anywhere near the capabilities of modern combines and tractors. If you wanted to build an "open source", state of the art circa 1970, should be totally doable. Modern tractors are kind of absurd - they are basically teleinformatic devices with an engine and attachments. All the problems of modern cars and modern industrial machines (e.g. CNC milling machine), combined. It's a bit like the change in telephony over the period - anyone with a soldering iron, machine tools and some knowhow could build a rotary phone on their own, but imagine trying to even assemble the components of an iPhone at home.
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Yep. I used to work for a company that provided HW & SW development services to an agricultural implement manufacturer -- the stuff that is towed by tractors. It wasn't unusual for some weird "happens only once in every 100 starts of the system" glitches to pop up that required hours in the field with diagnostic equipment trying to troubleshoot the thing. Cuz, of course it only happened on the tractor, not back in the lab! And then, "it only happens with this particular type of tablet or version of Android" to boot!
boltzmann-brain 4y ago
The complexity is thus: imagine you are presented with a 2020 laptop running on a chinese SoC, and you want to implement linux from ground up - empty repository. linux does not exist, and none of the hardware is described anywhere, there is no open source or easily hackable code out there for operating any of the hardware peripherals, nothing follows any standards. Also the laptop is actually 15 laptops, networked, and each of them has about 20 peripherals connected to it, all of which have to work at all times, or the whole machine grounds to a halt and worst case scenario kills you and then explodes. If that doesn't explain it's impossible, idk what can.
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
For a small one of < 50hp, not very difficult: a tractor is really just a very reliable engine (probably running well below spec), a transmission, a hydraulic pump and a frame to mount everything onto. People DIY tractors all the time. For tractors the size that we're mostly concerned with in articles like this, no one who needs it would have the time!
the_third_wave 4y ago
It depends on what you want the tractor to do. Running the engine can be done using free software so that problem is solvable. It is all the extra functionality related to semi-autonomous control which need to be built to create a fully open "modern" tractor which would be the biggest hurdle. Those functions may not be essential for small-scale or "hobby" farmers but they are so for large-scale operations whether they be using contractors or keeping the work in-house. So it would be solvable but who is going to do the work? Farmers tend to be risk-averse when it comes to equipment since they need it to work when needed - where "when" is often decided by external factors like crop and weather conditions, availability of supplies and help. When you're about to cut and bale hay you don't have time to tinker with your tractor since it has to be done before that cold front pulls in around 17.00 tonight...

How hard would it be to build an open source tractor? Pipe-dream or would "Tux Tractors" actually be a doable thing?

by mikece 4y ago

How hard would it be to build an open source tractor? Pipe-dream or would "Tux Tractors" actually be a doable thing?

It'd probably be hard to source parts and equipment - I think farmers are likely to be restricted by emissions regulations/requirements - wouldn't be easy to put a school bus engine into a tractor without some serious carbon/emissions capture, etc. (as an example) I seem to recall (though can't be 100% sure) that farmers are eligible for certain subsidies based on their emissions, etc. - basically shoehorning you into buying these expensive tractors/equipment as they're the only companies that can afford to follow those emissions standards - it sucks for farmers, but I can understand the benefit to the planet.

mikece 4y ago
School buses have pretty common diesel engines similar to what are used in farm tractors. For larger tractors I suspect the engines are more similar to those used in 18-wheeler trucks and are merely scaled up versions of the Cummins, Cat, or Detroit diesel engines. Perhaps the right question to ask isn't about the whole tractor being open spec but the engine as that's likely one thing a start-up tractor maker would have someone else build for them rather than doing it themselves.
- boltzmann-brain 4y ago
  Sorry, but: you shouldn't be imagining that stuff. Your competences as a programmer are nowhere near building farm tractors - there's nothing within your experience you can base this on.
  - mikece 4y ago
    The concept of fungible modules can apply to both tractors and enterprise software. Engines from Cummins, Cat, Detroit, Mercedes, etc; electrical systems from Bosch, Panasonic, Raytheon, or Seimens... just like we can swap email sending engines or cloud hosting providers. It's the details of completing the design and assembly of the tractor where I would go back to a dark cubicle and work on the open source ECM software.

jaggederest 4y ago

Not that hard, but it wouldn't have anywhere near the capabilities of modern combines and tractors. If you wanted to build an "open source", state of the art circa 1970, should be totally doable. Modern tractors are kind of absurd - they are basically teleinformatic devices with an engine and attachments. All the problems of modern cars and modern industrial machines (e.g. CNC milling machine), combined. It's a bit like the change in telephony over the period - anyone with a soldering iron, machine tools and some knowhow could build a rotary phone on their own, but imagine trying to even assemble the components of an iPhone at home.

HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
Yep. I used to work for a company that provided HW & SW development services to an agricultural implement manufacturer -- the stuff that is towed by tractors. It wasn't unusual for some weird "happens only once in every 100 starts of the system" glitches to pop up that required hours in the field with diagnostic equipment trying to troubleshoot the thing. Cuz, of course it only happened on the tractor, not back in the lab! And then, "it only happens with this particular type of tablet or version of Android" to boot!

boltzmann-brain 4y ago

The complexity is thus: imagine you are presented with a 2020 laptop running on a chinese SoC, and you want to implement linux from ground up - empty repository. linux does not exist, and none of the hardware is described anywhere, there is no open source or easily hackable code out there for operating any of the hardware peripherals, nothing follows any standards. Also the laptop is actually 15 laptops, networked, and each of them has about 20 peripherals connected to it, all of which have to work at all times, or the whole machine grounds to a halt and worst case scenario kills you and then explodes. If that doesn't explain it's impossible, idk what can.

HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago

For a small one of < 50hp, not very difficult: a tractor is really just a very reliable engine (probably running well below spec), a transmission, a hydraulic pump and a frame to mount everything onto. People DIY tractors all the time. For tractors the size that we're mostly concerned with in articles like this, no one who needs it would have the time!

the_third_wave 4y ago

It depends on what you want the tractor to do. Running the engine can be done using free software so that problem is solvable. It is all the extra functionality related to semi-autonomous control which need to be built to create a fully open "modern" tractor which would be the biggest hurdle. Those functions may not be essential for small-scale or "hobby" farmers but they are so for large-scale operations whether they be using contractors or keeping the work in-house. So it would be solvable but who is going to do the work? Farmers tend to be risk-averse when it comes to equipment since they need it to work when needed - where "when" is often decided by external factors like crop and weather conditions, availability of supplies and help. When you're about to cut and bale hay you don't have time to tinker with your tractor since it has to be done before that cold front pulls in around 17.00 tonight...