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Almost as upsetting as it is to see a Gish gallop link list rise to the top of that topic. Needless to say not one of those corroborates "history of lying abou

by ajross 4y ago

Almost as upsetting as it is to see a Gish gallop link list rise to the top of that topic. Needless to say not one of those corroborates "history of lying about their cars' safety", and you surely know that. But you'll challenge us all to figure it out on our own anyway? It's absolutely amazing that we have to go through this every time someone gets video of a Tesla event. There are millions of these cars on the road now, surely the fact that this happens only monthly sits as evidence against your position, no? Edit: FWIW: my money is on this story being quietly retracted at some point anyway. FSD doesn't behave like that. It just doesn't. Almost certainly the driver got confused, panicked, or otherwise overrode the automation and then blamed it when talking to police. The police report is almost silent on the subject: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23569059-9335-2022-02256-redacted https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23569059-9335-2022-0... This entire kerfuffle is based on this one sentence: "P-1 stated V-1 was in Full Self Driving mode at the time of the crash, I am unable to verify if V-1’s Full 24 Self-Driving Capability was active at the time of the crash."

culi 4y ago
the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, New York Times, and even published research[0] have all been calling Elon Musk out for years now, yet his fans will still believe him despite them withholding data [0] https://engrxiv.org/preprint/view/1973/3986 https://engrxiv.org/preprint/view/1973/3986
- ajross 4y ago
  This is the gallop part. I called you out on your first set of links (one of which legitimately hoodwinked a commenter here!) and instead of defending those arguments you're pivoting to another. I won't engage here either, except to point out that this isn't "published research" (it literally tells you that on the first page). The clear and inarguable truth is that the Tesla fleet is pushing three million cars now. They're safe. Are they safest? safer? less safe? There's space for argument. But the kind of absolutist story you're spinning just doesn't hold. If these cars were actually causing accidents at even a moderately higher rate, we'd quite clearly know about it. And they aren't.
  - culi 4y ago
    This study is from one of the original links I shared... You accused me of gish gallopping. I've since slowed down and focused on specific events. See my other comments about the battery swapping scam for example. Please provide some actual data proving these cars are safer than average. Tesla certainly hasn't been able to. And research, like the one I just linked which you refused to acknowledge, definitely does not back up Elon's claims
    - ajross 4y ago
      > Please provide some actual data proving these cars are safer than average. Tesla certainly hasn't been able to. But... they have. That's exactly the link we're discussing. You don't want that to be true, so you're digging around trying to pretend via a flood of bad evidence that they're somehow "lying" in that data. But... what if they aren't? Again, three million cars are an awfully big signal to try to spin. Isn't the Occam's Razor interpretation (also jives with my personal experience with the product, FWIW) that... they're safe?
      - culi 4y ago
        I can't tell if you forgot a </s> there but just in case you're sincere... I just paid $5k on a used extended van. One of the most dangerous cars you can buy. Obviously I don't expect this to be any safer than a $100k Tesla. Similarly, I find any comparison between the "average car" and a Tesla's crash ratings to be completely useless. How do we know that other luxury cars around that price point don't actually do much much better than tesla does? The "data" provided is insincere at best. It's also not actual data. They're just telling us some numbers. They've consistently refused to provide any actual data This OP also again makes the claim of the "lowest probability of injury of any car by NHTSA" which the NHTSA has repeatedly asked them to stop saying.[0] The NHTSA doesn't rank cars by probability of injury at all Remember when they said the Tesla S earned 5.4 stars and NHTSA had to make a public statement that it does not award more than 5 stars? lol. Yet another lie [0] https://krcrtv.com/features/auto-matters/nhtsa-to-tesla-stop-claiming-your-cars-are-the-safest https://krcrtv.com/features/auto-matters/nhtsa-to-tesla-stop...
FireBeyond 4y ago
> Needless to say not one of those corroborates "history of lying about their cars' safety", and you surely know that. From the first link: > Federal safety regulators accused Elon Musk of issuing “misleading statements” on his company’s Tesla Model 3 last year, sending a cease-and-desist letter Federal regulators don't exactly send cease and desists casually. Misleading and misrepresenting is dishonest, i.e. lying.

by ajross 4y ago

culi 4y ago

the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, New York Times, and even published research[0] have all been calling Elon Musk out for years now, yet his fans will still believe him despite them withholding data [0] https://engrxiv.org/preprint/view/1973/3986 https://engrxiv.org/preprint/view/1973/3986

ajross 4y ago
This is the gallop part. I called you out on your first set of links (one of which legitimately hoodwinked a commenter here!) and instead of defending those arguments you're pivoting to another. I won't engage here either, except to point out that this isn't "published research" (it literally tells you that on the first page). The clear and inarguable truth is that the Tesla fleet is pushing three million cars now. They're safe. Are they safest? safer? less safe? There's space for argument. But the kind of absolutist story you're spinning just doesn't hold. If these cars were actually causing accidents at even a moderately higher rate, we'd quite clearly know about it. And they aren't.
- culi 4y ago
  This study is from one of the original links I shared... You accused me of gish gallopping. I've since slowed down and focused on specific events. See my other comments about the battery swapping scam for example. Please provide some actual data proving these cars are safer than average. Tesla certainly hasn't been able to. And research, like the one I just linked which you refused to acknowledge, definitely does not back up Elon's claims
  - ajross 4y ago
    > Please provide some actual data proving these cars are safer than average. Tesla certainly hasn't been able to. But... they have. That's exactly the link we're discussing. You don't want that to be true, so you're digging around trying to pretend via a flood of bad evidence that they're somehow "lying" in that data. But... what if they aren't? Again, three million cars are an awfully big signal to try to spin. Isn't the Occam's Razor interpretation (also jives with my personal experience with the product, FWIW) that... they're safe?
    - culi 4y ago
      I can't tell if you forgot a </s> there but just in case you're sincere... I just paid $5k on a used extended van. One of the most dangerous cars you can buy. Obviously I don't expect this to be any safer than a $100k Tesla. Similarly, I find any comparison between the "average car" and a Tesla's crash ratings to be completely useless. How do we know that other luxury cars around that price point don't actually do much much better than tesla does? The "data" provided is insincere at best. It's also not actual data. They're just telling us some numbers. They've consistently refused to provide any actual data This OP also again makes the claim of the "lowest probability of injury of any car by NHTSA" which the NHTSA has repeatedly asked them to stop saying.[0] The NHTSA doesn't rank cars by probability of injury at all Remember when they said the Tesla S earned 5.4 stars and NHTSA had to make a public statement that it does not award more than 5 stars? lol. Yet another lie [0] https://krcrtv.com/features/auto-matters/nhtsa-to-tesla-stop-claiming-your-cars-are-the-safest https://krcrtv.com/features/auto-matters/nhtsa-to-tesla-stop...

FireBeyond 4y ago

> Needless to say not one of those corroborates "history of lying about their cars' safety", and you surely know that. From the first link: > Federal safety regulators accused Elon Musk of issuing “misleading statements” on his company’s Tesla Model 3 last year, sending a cease-and-desist letter Federal regulators don't exactly send cease and desists casually. Misleading and misrepresenting is dishonest, i.e. lying.