4 ms·

If California were particularly terrible, it wouldn't be so damn popular, and most of its problems would go away. California does have some specific policy prob

If California were particularly terrible, it wouldn't be so damn popular, and most of its problems would go away. California does have some specific policy problems, but most of what it has are popular place problems. It also doesn't pass muster with my own lived experience. I've loved all of the 15 years I've spent in both Northern and Southern metro California, and I'd do it again.

bb88 4y ago
Thousands of Californians left this last year or two and moved to Idaho. This sparked a housing crisis here in Boise, Idaho. I would assume these are left and right of center folks looking for cheaper housing and a better life. At one point last year the median household income was $75k/year. The median house price was $525k or so. Basically this created the situation if you couldn't afford a house before the housing crisis, the $1500 to $2000 rent payments were going to eat into your income and make it harder to buy a house. The NIMBY politics surrounding housing has got to go in California. We're beginning to get that here.
- wwweston 4y ago
  > This sparked a housing crisis here in Boise, Idaho. How interesting. Presumably as enlightened examples of the opposite of California governance, they wouldn't have any such thing as a housing crisis caused by popularity. Or... it could be they've had the luxury of not having popular-place problems thus far, and like everyone else are suddenly discovering that actual governance is hard.
  - bb88 4y ago
    They came here to escape California governance, I guess, but in the end just made life worse for everyone else living here. My property taxes have more than doubled over the last decade.
    - mixmastamyk 4y ago
      NIMBYs are everywhere while the population is always growing. Did you think you would escape it, or just want to blame city slickers who like a roof over their head?
      - bb88 4y ago
        If you're defending NIMBYism with this post, it fails on many fronts.
        mixmastamyk 4y ago
        Please read again.
- gremlinsinc 4y ago
  People complain of Californians moving here as well, driving up costs but nobody looks at the 385 vacant AirBNB's in a town of 45k (Cedar City, UT). If you had 385 homes open up for student or family housing the rental crisis would plummet and prices would drop to normal. If they go un-filled that means they need homeowners instead of renters and will be back on the market at lesser prices because demand will drop if airbnb is limited. There should be like a set quota of airbnb's per capita (1 per 1k maybe?, and a yearly license by random lottery to see who gets a license).
  - taylodl 4y ago
    So you're saying the government should regulate how you use your private property? That's an interesting idea coming from a so-called "red" state.
    - bb88 4y ago
      If you're not living in it and using it for vacation homes, it seems eminent domain makes sense. Now this is "homes" I'm talking about, not other dense living situations like apartment buildings and hotels.
    - ashwagary 4y ago
      Hotels should be zoned for commercial activity. He's right about the AirBNB business model increasing homelessness.
      - taylodl 4y ago
        What has increased homelessness is communities restricting new building. The homeless have no means for buying the typical AirBNB property.
        wwweston 4y ago
        Not adding supply and taking existing supply off the market both contribute to supply issues. And I'm not sure that AirBnB avoids any particular segment of the market; it can as easily cannibalize 1bd condos as it can 4bd homes.
- threatofrain 4y ago
  At what point is it reasonable for the major Californian cities to stop growing? Aren't there states where the entire state population could fit inside a single Californian city? Aren't there cities whose population could amount to several US states? People are complaining about California's governance, taxes, and pricing, so what's wrong with encouraging movement to other states? A popular HN perspective would describe SF's problem as NIMBY and that we should allow developers to build without regulations like mandatory parking, but the transportation situation in SF is really bad. I feel that a city cannot just scale linearly once you pass a certain population / density threshold. When I go to SF I expect to burn 20 minutes solely on parking or to pay very expensive parking fees for private lots. If you use any major highways in California during rush hour then expect a 30-45 min tax on your time. If people want SF to pass 1M then there needs to be a deliberate public works project to revamp the infrastructure in a massive way. Also, do people think that building more lots would make things cheaper? London's population is ~9M, NYC is ~8.4M, Tokyo is ~14M. If London gets to 10M, is housing going to be finally affordable to UK citizens? When will Tokyo be affordable? SF is approximately 3-4x the population density of London and 3x of Tokyo. The vibe I get when driving around SF residentials is one of claustrophobic density, like the city can't afford any interstitial gaps between lots for things like trees.
  - bb88 4y ago
    > People are complaining about California's governance, taxes, and pricing, so what's wrong with encouraging movement to other states? In short, public golf courses -- moreover -- the protection of public golf courses. That's pure NIMBYism right there. California chose golf courses over housing. Think about that.
WkndTriathlete 4y ago
California is popular because of its _climate_ and despite all of the batshit insane policies that have been legislated. I'm gradually approaching retirement age and looking for a place with better climate to retire to, but everywhere I've visited - including California - has a lot of negatives that outweigh the positives of where I currently live, which (by a lot of metrics) has some of the worst climate in the nation. Despite all of that, I might still put up with additional crap elsewhere to live in a more moderate climate. Don't underestimate climate as a powerful decider for where people live.
- wwweston 4y ago
  Climate is indeed one of the reasons it's popular. That's not even remotely a counterargument against the premise that most of the state's problems are primarily from popularity rather than policy. And "batshit policy" shouldn't be taken seriously as a charge without serious specific policy criticisms.
pandaman 4y ago
How do you gauge popularity of a state? I am guessing not by the net domestic migration [1], which would seem to be a natural choice in this case. 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_net_migration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

bb88 4y ago

Thousands of Californians left this last year or two and moved to Idaho. This sparked a housing crisis here in Boise, Idaho. I would assume these are left and right of center folks looking for cheaper housing and a better life. At one point last year the median household income was $75k/year. The median house price was $525k or so. Basically this created the situation if you couldn't afford a house before the housing crisis, the $1500 to $2000 rent payments were going to eat into your income and make it harder to buy a house. The NIMBY politics surrounding housing has got to go in California. We're beginning to get that here.

wwweston 4y ago
> This sparked a housing crisis here in Boise, Idaho. How interesting. Presumably as enlightened examples of the opposite of California governance, they wouldn't have any such thing as a housing crisis caused by popularity. Or... it could be they've had the luxury of not having popular-place problems thus far, and like everyone else are suddenly discovering that actual governance is hard.
- bb88 4y ago
  They came here to escape California governance, I guess, but in the end just made life worse for everyone else living here. My property taxes have more than doubled over the last decade.
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    NIMBYs are everywhere while the population is always growing. Did you think you would escape it, or just want to blame city slickers who like a roof over their head?
    - bb88 4y ago
      If you're defending NIMBYism with this post, it fails on many fronts.
      - mixmastamyk 4y ago
        Please read again.
gremlinsinc 4y ago
People complain of Californians moving here as well, driving up costs but nobody looks at the 385 vacant AirBNB's in a town of 45k (Cedar City, UT). If you had 385 homes open up for student or family housing the rental crisis would plummet and prices would drop to normal. If they go un-filled that means they need homeowners instead of renters and will be back on the market at lesser prices because demand will drop if airbnb is limited. There should be like a set quota of airbnb's per capita (1 per 1k maybe?, and a yearly license by random lottery to see who gets a license).
- taylodl 4y ago
  So you're saying the government should regulate how you use your private property? That's an interesting idea coming from a so-called "red" state.
  - bb88 4y ago
    If you're not living in it and using it for vacation homes, it seems eminent domain makes sense. Now this is "homes" I'm talking about, not other dense living situations like apartment buildings and hotels.
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    Hotels should be zoned for commercial activity. He's right about the AirBNB business model increasing homelessness.
    - taylodl 4y ago
      What has increased homelessness is communities restricting new building. The homeless have no means for buying the typical AirBNB property.
      - wwweston 4y ago
        Not adding supply and taking existing supply off the market both contribute to supply issues. And I'm not sure that AirBnB avoids any particular segment of the market; it can as easily cannibalize 1bd condos as it can 4bd homes.
threatofrain 4y ago
At what point is it reasonable for the major Californian cities to stop growing? Aren't there states where the entire state population could fit inside a single Californian city? Aren't there cities whose population could amount to several US states? People are complaining about California's governance, taxes, and pricing, so what's wrong with encouraging movement to other states? A popular HN perspective would describe SF's problem as NIMBY and that we should allow developers to build without regulations like mandatory parking, but the transportation situation in SF is really bad. I feel that a city cannot just scale linearly once you pass a certain population / density threshold. When I go to SF I expect to burn 20 minutes solely on parking or to pay very expensive parking fees for private lots. If you use any major highways in California during rush hour then expect a 30-45 min tax on your time. If people want SF to pass 1M then there needs to be a deliberate public works project to revamp the infrastructure in a massive way. Also, do people think that building more lots would make things cheaper? London's population is ~9M, NYC is ~8.4M, Tokyo is ~14M. If London gets to 10M, is housing going to be finally affordable to UK citizens? When will Tokyo be affordable? SF is approximately 3-4x the population density of London and 3x of Tokyo. The vibe I get when driving around SF residentials is one of claustrophobic density, like the city can't afford any interstitial gaps between lots for things like trees.
- bb88 4y ago
  > People are complaining about California's governance, taxes, and pricing, so what's wrong with encouraging movement to other states? In short, public golf courses -- moreover -- the protection of public golf courses. That's pure NIMBYism right there. California chose golf courses over housing. Think about that.

WkndTriathlete 4y ago

California is popular because of its _climate_ and despite all of the batshit insane policies that have been legislated. I'm gradually approaching retirement age and looking for a place with better climate to retire to, but everywhere I've visited - including California - has a lot of negatives that outweigh the positives of where I currently live, which (by a lot of metrics) has some of the worst climate in the nation. Despite all of that, I might still put up with additional crap elsewhere to live in a more moderate climate. Don't underestimate climate as a powerful decider for where people live.

wwweston 4y ago
Climate is indeed one of the reasons it's popular. That's not even remotely a counterargument against the premise that most of the state's problems are primarily from popularity rather than policy. And "batshit policy" shouldn't be taken seriously as a charge without serious specific policy criticisms.

pandaman 4y ago

How do you gauge popularity of a state? I am guessing not by the net domestic migration [1], which would seem to be a natural choice in this case. 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_net_migration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...