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> Now my opinion is that maybe it should be the last step, after addressing the causes of gun death (suicide and the drug war are at the top of the list). But a

> Now my opinion is that maybe it should be the last step, after addressing the causes of gun death (suicide and the drug war are at the top of the list). But at that point, if we'd actually fixed those problems, I wonder if there would be much of a pressing need to get rid of guns at all. I've given myself plenty a sore throat stating and restating this exact point over the years. Even waving a magic wand that magically erases the very concept of a firearm from existence would do precisely nothing to address the underlying causes of violence and suicide - and actually addressing said underlying causes would be far more effective in reducing (if not outright eliminating) said violence and suicide (not to mention the myriad other societal benefits!) than said gun-erasing magic wand (let alone any less-stringent form of gun control). Unfortunately, said underlying causes - in particular, socioeconomic inequality and mental healthcare inaccessibility - are notoriously difficult to address without pissing off the people largely in control of the world's governments/economies/societies. Said people also happen to not like it when their serfs have the means to fight back against that control - and therefore have a vested interest in convincing us serfs to demand our own disarmament instead of demanding they pay their fair share toward actual solutions. (In case anyone thinks I'm being too coy: yes, I'm referring to the ownership class - i.e. the beneficiaries of capitalism, i.e. the ones who subsist primarily/entirely on the profits skimmed from the rest of our labor. You don't have to be a full-blown Marxist or whatever to understand the age-old adages of "money is power" and "power corrupts".)

kaba0 4y ago
Is gangs shooting each other, (usually family) homicides and school shootings not big enough problems? Because we have plenty of countries with similar social problems, yet they have much much lower deaths per capita, so it is safe to conclude that guns are a problem. (Nonetheless, I won’t pretend to know a solution, the car is out of the bag and the US is not easily fixable. But stricter gun control is definitely a good way ahead)
- yellowapple 4y ago
  > Is gangs shooting each other, (usually family) homicides and school shootings not big enough problems? They are symptoms. People don't join gangs or shoot up schools for the hell of it. They do those things because either their material conditions drove them to that point or they failed to receive the mental help they needed before it was too late (respectively). > Because we have plenty of countries with similar social problems, yet they have much much lower deaths per capita The ones with lower deaths per capita also typically have lower degrees/magnitudes of said social problems. The correlation is with socioeconomic stability and equality, not with any particular tool. That is: > it is safe to conclude that guns are a problem No, that ain't a safe conclusion, and does not logically follow. If that was a safe conclusion, then countries like South Africa - with far stricter gun laws and far fewer guns per person - would have lower homicide rates, and that is rather evidently not the case.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    Socioeconomic problems correlate with gun crimes, but it is absolutely naive to think that we can achieve perfect mental health/material conditions. Even if we managed to get UBI for everyone and in a strictly theoretical sense solved these issues and everyone is well off, doesn’t have to work etc, we would still have mental health issues, psychopaths, etc (as even the best medical care will fail plenty of times). I see no evil in limiting their reach of destruction, plus healing symptoms is just as important even in actual medicine as they can just as well kill you. Of course it is not exclusive-or, we have to do plenty to better the mental health of basically every country’s population.

kaba0 4y ago

Is gangs shooting each other, (usually family) homicides and school shootings not big enough problems? Because we have plenty of countries with similar social problems, yet they have much much lower deaths per capita, so it is safe to conclude that guns are a problem. (Nonetheless, I won’t pretend to know a solution, the car is out of the bag and the US is not easily fixable. But stricter gun control is definitely a good way ahead)

yellowapple 4y ago
> Is gangs shooting each other, (usually family) homicides and school shootings not big enough problems? They are symptoms. People don't join gangs or shoot up schools for the hell of it. They do those things because either their material conditions drove them to that point or they failed to receive the mental help they needed before it was too late (respectively). > Because we have plenty of countries with similar social problems, yet they have much much lower deaths per capita The ones with lower deaths per capita also typically have lower degrees/magnitudes of said social problems. The correlation is with socioeconomic stability and equality, not with any particular tool. That is: > it is safe to conclude that guns are a problem No, that ain't a safe conclusion, and does not logically follow. If that was a safe conclusion, then countries like South Africa - with far stricter gun laws and far fewer guns per person - would have lower homicide rates, and that is rather evidently not the case.
- kaba0 4y ago
  Socioeconomic problems correlate with gun crimes, but it is absolutely naive to think that we can achieve perfect mental health/material conditions. Even if we managed to get UBI for everyone and in a strictly theoretical sense solved these issues and everyone is well off, doesn’t have to work etc, we would still have mental health issues, psychopaths, etc (as even the best medical care will fail plenty of times). I see no evil in limiting their reach of destruction, plus healing symptoms is just as important even in actual medicine as they can just as well kill you. Of course it is not exclusive-or, we have to do plenty to better the mental health of basically every country’s population.