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Conversely, how can we blame the government for failing to provide the benefits taxes are supposed to fund when people are cheating on their taxes? The reality

Conversely, how can we blame the government for failing to provide the benefits taxes are supposed to fund when people are cheating on their taxes? The reality is that tax cheaters are stealing not from the government, but from other citizens: cheaters and honest folk alike benefit from social services, but the latter pay for them.

pdonis 4y ago
> cheaters and honest folk alike benefit from social services You can't just help yourself to this claim since it is precisely this that I am disputing. If in fact nobody is actually benefiting from government services, then the problem isn't "cheaters" who don't pay their taxes, the problem is "enablers" who do--thereby giving money to a government that is failing to do what it's supposed to do.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  > If in fact nobody is actually benefiting from government services, And my point is this is patently false. Would you be okay if the NYP announced that it would not enforce or police crimes perpetrated against Chinatown businesses because of widespread tax fraud? If you truly believed if what you wrote, you would not care: the government isn't providing any service then this should be a non-issue, the government didn't provide any services so this announcement is a no-op. Of course such a proclamation would be heinous, because contrary to your insistence that the government doesn't provide services they absolutely do provide critical services. The reality is that people just don't want to pay taxes and are using their frustration with what they perceive to be government inefficiency or corruption as justification for their tax fraud.
  - pdonis 4y ago
    The fact that the NYP doesn't announce that it's not policing crimes that it should be policing, does not mean that it actually is policing crimes that it should be policing. Again, you can't just help yourself to the claim that the government actually does what it's supposed to do. Nor can you just assume that it must be because of how you expect that people would respond to some hypothetical announcement.
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      So you'd be totally fine if the NYP made an official announcement: "As of today any crimes perpetrated against Chinatown businesses will not result in law enforcement response." I'm talking in terms of real, concrete actions. You'd genuinely be okay with the government singling out this community and making it clear that it's fair game for criminals to target this community?
      - pdonis 4y ago
        Why are you singling out Chinatown?
        Manuel_D 4y ago
        Just as an example. Like I said, you should be totally unfazed by the NYP saying "we won't enforce any crimes against Chinatown businesses" if you truly believe that New York isn't providing any social services.
- abeppu 4y ago
  "nobody is actually benefiting from government services"? Do you suppose New Yorkers drink tap water? It tastes pretty good. I recently learned that still the longest tunnel in use is the Delaware Aqueduct, built in 1945, which brings water to NYC from a series of reservoirs. It runs 85 miles and terminates in Yonkers. Even decades later, and after China's spectacular building projects, it hasn't yet been surpassed. The reservoirs have to be actively monitored and administered to keep the water quality high. For 8.8M people even the most basic necessities of life depend on government services, and on creating and maintaining massive infrastructure. You can argue that public spending is inefficient, dysfunctional, at times inhumane, but people live in NYCHA housing, go to schools including the CUNY system. They certainly ride transit, use the parks. NY recognizes a right to shelter, and while the system needs a lot of improvement, it does get a lot of people into supportive housing. To claim that _none_ of those people benefit seems like quite a stretch. > the problem is "enablers" who do--thereby giving money to a government that is failing to do what it's supposed to do. I'm confused about what you even think government _is_ supposed to do. But if you agree that government does have a role and responsibilities to fulfill, I definitely don't understand how you are actively blaming tax-payers. What do you think _not_ paying taxes will accomplish?
  - pdonis 4y ago
    > I'm confused about what you even think government _is_ supposed to do. Apparently so are all the people who aren't in the fewer than 40% of New Yorkers referred to in the article.

pdonis 4y ago

> cheaters and honest folk alike benefit from social services You can't just help yourself to this claim since it is precisely this that I am disputing. If in fact nobody is actually benefiting from government services, then the problem isn't "cheaters" who don't pay their taxes, the problem is "enablers" who do--thereby giving money to a government that is failing to do what it's supposed to do.

Manuel_D 4y ago
> If in fact nobody is actually benefiting from government services, And my point is this is patently false. Would you be okay if the NYP announced that it would not enforce or police crimes perpetrated against Chinatown businesses because of widespread tax fraud? If you truly believed if what you wrote, you would not care: the government isn't providing any service then this should be a non-issue, the government didn't provide any services so this announcement is a no-op. Of course such a proclamation would be heinous, because contrary to your insistence that the government doesn't provide services they absolutely do provide critical services. The reality is that people just don't want to pay taxes and are using their frustration with what they perceive to be government inefficiency or corruption as justification for their tax fraud.
- pdonis 4y ago
  The fact that the NYP doesn't announce that it's not policing crimes that it should be policing, does not mean that it actually is policing crimes that it should be policing. Again, you can't just help yourself to the claim that the government actually does what it's supposed to do. Nor can you just assume that it must be because of how you expect that people would respond to some hypothetical announcement.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    So you'd be totally fine if the NYP made an official announcement: "As of today any crimes perpetrated against Chinatown businesses will not result in law enforcement response." I'm talking in terms of real, concrete actions. You'd genuinely be okay with the government singling out this community and making it clear that it's fair game for criminals to target this community?
    - pdonis 4y ago
      Why are you singling out Chinatown?
      - Manuel_D 4y ago
        Just as an example. Like I said, you should be totally unfazed by the NYP saying "we won't enforce any crimes against Chinatown businesses" if you truly believe that New York isn't providing any social services.
abeppu 4y ago
"nobody is actually benefiting from government services"? Do you suppose New Yorkers drink tap water? It tastes pretty good. I recently learned that still the longest tunnel in use is the Delaware Aqueduct, built in 1945, which brings water to NYC from a series of reservoirs. It runs 85 miles and terminates in Yonkers. Even decades later, and after China's spectacular building projects, it hasn't yet been surpassed. The reservoirs have to be actively monitored and administered to keep the water quality high. For 8.8M people even the most basic necessities of life depend on government services, and on creating and maintaining massive infrastructure. You can argue that public spending is inefficient, dysfunctional, at times inhumane, but people live in NYCHA housing, go to schools including the CUNY system. They certainly ride transit, use the parks. NY recognizes a right to shelter, and while the system needs a lot of improvement, it does get a lot of people into supportive housing. To claim that _none_ of those people benefit seems like quite a stretch. > the problem is "enablers" who do--thereby giving money to a government that is failing to do what it's supposed to do. I'm confused about what you even think government _is_ supposed to do. But if you agree that government does have a role and responsibilities to fulfill, I definitely don't understand how you are actively blaming tax-payers. What do you think _not_ paying taxes will accomplish?
- pdonis 4y ago
  > I'm confused about what you even think government _is_ supposed to do. Apparently so are all the people who aren't in the fewer than 40% of New Yorkers referred to in the article.