4 ms·

If those people living in rent controlled units move, can they find a place with the same rent? Or would they need to move to a different state, away from thei

by klyrs 4y ago

If those people living in rent controlled units move, can they find a place with the same rent? Or would they need to move to a different state, away from their friends, family, community and job?

woodruffw 4y ago
Probably the latter. There are many senses in which it's not ideal; at the same time, I think most people in NYC would happily take a rent controlled unit (if they're not already living in one).
- klyrs 4y ago
  Yep. And what rent-controlled units exist, have huge waiting lists. If you don't like the place, or if your landlord is negligent or an abusive jerk, then too bad, them's the breaks. You're "happy" to take such a place because the alternative is worse. That doesn't mean it's good.
  - chimeracoder 4y ago
    > And what rent-controlled units exist, have huge waiting lists. It's worse than you're describing. Rent-controlled apartments have no waiting lists, because rent control is all but phased out. It only exists for a very small number of apartments that have been occupied continuously since the 1971 by the same person or lawful successors (e.g., spouse). Rent-stabilized apartments are very hard to come by. Not only are they incredibly competitive, but they often require massive broker fees (NYC is one of the few markets where renters are expected to pay the fee for the broker hired by the landlord). So even if you're lucky enough to score a $1000/month rent-stabilized apartment, you may have to pay a broker's fee of $5000 or more[0], on top of the first and last month rent. [0] this is not an exaggeration; the market has exploded in the last year, and broker's fees are unbelievable compared to even a few years ago
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      Rent-controlled apartments are indeed basically extinct, but IME rent stabilization has more variance than you're describing: my first independent apartment was rent stabilized, and I didn't have to pay any broker fees. This was in South Harlem.
      - chimeracoder 4y ago
        > IME rent stabilization has more variance than you're describing: my first independent apartment was rent stabilized, and I didn't have to pay any broker fees. This was in South Harlem. When was this? I'm talking about the state of rent stabilization today - 2023 - not 2021 or earlier. These days, you might happen to luck into a rent-stabilized apartment, but if you're actively looking for one, you'll be very hard-pressed to actually successfully rent one without paying through the nose.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        That was 2018. I just checked, and the same unit has been off-market since 2020 at...$5 less than I was paying for it. Similar units in the building are going for the same rates that they were in 2018.
        chimeracoder 4y ago
        > Similar units in the building are going for the same rates that they were in 2018. That doesn't contradict what I'm saying. Rent stabilization limits the amount by which landlords can raise rents (2019 also closed a loophole around preferential rents and vacancies). But that doesn't reflect the actual total cost paid by people who are signing leases for rent-stabilized apartments today. > off-market since 2020 Yes, warehousing is another widely-reported problem in the last two years.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        Just to clarify: by "off-market" I meant that it's being occupied, not that they're warehousing it. But yeah, I'm a few years out of date. My two apartments after that weren't stabilized at all.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    The null hypothesis here is that your rent controlled (or stabilized) landlord is worse than your average New York landlord, which is debatable! There's all kinds of context being missed here: rent controlled units tend to be in pre-war buildings in very nice neighborhoods, because that's where the housing was built in that era. They're also frequently in co-op or condominium-owned buildings, where the owners took the building private but still have to respect the pre-private holdout leases. They also tend to be larger than their non-controlled price-point equivalent, because they weren't chopped up during housing boom cycles. Is it an unequivocal dream? No, for the reasons you said. But for every single family I know, it's a fantastic deal and an opportunity to live and access things that would otherwise be far outside of their means.
    - paledot 4y ago
      > The null hypothesis here is that your rent controlled (or stabilized) landlord is worse than your average New York landlord, which is debatable! It's not. The problem is that if you have a market-rate apartment and your landlord is an asshole, you can move.

by klyrs 4y ago

If those people living in rent controlled units move, can they find a place with the same rent? Or would they need to move to a different state, away from their friends, family, community and job?

woodruffw 4y ago

Probably the latter. There are many senses in which it's not ideal; at the same time, I think most people in NYC would happily take a rent controlled unit (if they're not already living in one).

klyrs 4y ago
Yep. And what rent-controlled units exist, have huge waiting lists. If you don't like the place, or if your landlord is negligent or an abusive jerk, then too bad, them's the breaks. You're "happy" to take such a place because the alternative is worse. That doesn't mean it's good.
- chimeracoder 4y ago
  > And what rent-controlled units exist, have huge waiting lists. It's worse than you're describing. Rent-controlled apartments have no waiting lists, because rent control is all but phased out. It only exists for a very small number of apartments that have been occupied continuously since the 1971 by the same person or lawful successors (e.g., spouse). Rent-stabilized apartments are very hard to come by. Not only are they incredibly competitive, but they often require massive broker fees (NYC is one of the few markets where renters are expected to pay the fee for the broker hired by the landlord). So even if you're lucky enough to score a $1000/month rent-stabilized apartment, you may have to pay a broker's fee of $5000 or more[0], on top of the first and last month rent. [0] this is not an exaggeration; the market has exploded in the last year, and broker's fees are unbelievable compared to even a few years ago
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Rent-controlled apartments are indeed basically extinct, but IME rent stabilization has more variance than you're describing: my first independent apartment was rent stabilized, and I didn't have to pay any broker fees. This was in South Harlem.
    - chimeracoder 4y ago
      > IME rent stabilization has more variance than you're describing: my first independent apartment was rent stabilized, and I didn't have to pay any broker fees. This was in South Harlem. When was this? I'm talking about the state of rent stabilization today - 2023 - not 2021 or earlier. These days, you might happen to luck into a rent-stabilized apartment, but if you're actively looking for one, you'll be very hard-pressed to actually successfully rent one without paying through the nose.
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        That was 2018. I just checked, and the same unit has been off-market since 2020 at...$5 less than I was paying for it. Similar units in the building are going for the same rates that they were in 2018.
        chimeracoder 4y ago
        > Similar units in the building are going for the same rates that they were in 2018. That doesn't contradict what I'm saying. Rent stabilization limits the amount by which landlords can raise rents (2019 also closed a loophole around preferential rents and vacancies). But that doesn't reflect the actual total cost paid by people who are signing leases for rent-stabilized apartments today. > off-market since 2020 Yes, warehousing is another widely-reported problem in the last two years.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        Just to clarify: by "off-market" I meant that it's being occupied, not that they're warehousing it. But yeah, I'm a few years out of date. My two apartments after that weren't stabilized at all.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  The null hypothesis here is that your rent controlled (or stabilized) landlord is worse than your average New York landlord, which is debatable! There's all kinds of context being missed here: rent controlled units tend to be in pre-war buildings in very nice neighborhoods, because that's where the housing was built in that era. They're also frequently in co-op or condominium-owned buildings, where the owners took the building private but still have to respect the pre-private holdout leases. They also tend to be larger than their non-controlled price-point equivalent, because they weren't chopped up during housing boom cycles. Is it an unequivocal dream? No, for the reasons you said. But for every single family I know, it's a fantastic deal and an opportunity to live and access things that would otherwise be far outside of their means.
  - paledot 4y ago
    > The null hypothesis here is that your rent controlled (or stabilized) landlord is worse than your average New York landlord, which is debatable! It's not. The problem is that if you have a market-rate apartment and your landlord is an asshole, you can move.