4 ms·

I'm a native NYer, and the GP's comment is largely correct: tax fraud and "informal" (meaning under-the-table) pay is more or less the norm for broad swathes of

I'm a native NYer, and the GP's comment is largely correct: tax fraud and "informal" (meaning under-the-table) pay is more or less the norm for broad swathes of the city's service and contracting industries. Every job I ever had in high school was paid under the table, and this is true for my family members as well. It's also normal to not pay sales tax in the city at smaller cafes and every bodega; this is normally passed off as a "cash discount," but it's conspicuously 8.875% rather than the normal credit processing fee. All that being said: this doesn't necessarily contradict the claim that large numbers of New Yorkers aren't making a living wage. Under-the-table agreements enable wage suppression/theft and make it more difficult for the city to use its labor laws to protect workers.

Wowfunhappy 4y ago
> It's also normal to not pay sales tax in the city at smaller cafes and every bodega; this is normally passed off as a "cash discount," but it's conspicuously 8.875% rather than the normal credit processing fee. For what it's worth, I live in NYC and have never experienced this. Lots of smaller places give cash discounts, but in my experience it's in the range of 3–4%, which sounds like a CC fee.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Which part do you live in? This was the norm in the neighborhood I grew up in (north of UWS), as well as everywhere I've lived (Harlem, north Brooklyn). I wouldn't expect it to be the norm in areas where the foot traffic might pay credit cards by default; I think it's mostly in areas where cash business comes first anyways. Edit: I wish people wouldn't downvote you. It's a massive city, and it's entirely possible to never experience this!
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    I live in Manhattan. My apartment is in Harlem, but I don't spend much time there, I'm usually further downtown.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      That tracks with my experience: I've never received a tax discount for paying in cash downtown. I think some of that has to do with who owns the real estate: ownership tends to be corporate and structured downtown, so businesses' finances tend to be correspondingly more accountable and "by the books."
- singhrac 4y ago
  I have definitely received larger than 3-4% discounts (5% is pretty common, I've even seen 10%). At the time I had a pretty long discussion about reasons with my friends, but there's a lot of illegal and legal reasons to prefer cash: (a) you can pay employees quicker since credit cards don't disburse funds immediately, (b) you can pay employees "under the table" i.e. ignoring income taxes, (c) you can pay off your suppliers faster (as above), which is really useful for businesses with poorly documented credit (i.e. receiving net 30 or no credit). Depending on the use of the cash, I could see it being economically valuable to offer even a 15% discount (for illegal use) or 5% (for legal, CC processing + credit reasons).
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    To be clear, I've definitely seen higher than 4%, just not frequently. What I have personally never seen is a discount of exactly 8.875%, I would have noticed that!
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      Do you have a local coffee place that'll sell you a coffee for 2.75 instead of 3.00 if you pay cash? That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of (and that's normal in the neighborhood I currently live in.)
- ryanwaggoner 4y ago
  Same here, UWS
yardie 4y ago
I've lived in NYC in the past and informally had discounts of 5-15% for services by paying cash, nothing declared, no receipts. Years long relationships with a mechanic or handyman can net some pretty deep discounts if they know you won't be a problem about billing disputes.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Yes, this is my experience as well. I've been doing business with some of the same people my entire life, and "cash only, no receipts, discount between friends" is the norm.
- nunez 4y ago
  That and there are a TON of small (and not so small) businesses in NYC that are cash only or will not accept cards for transactions under $5 or $10 (and have a majority of transactions that are under that threshold). I remember being absolutely shocked when I went to a super duper hole in the wall place in Dallas that I was _sure_ was cash-only and discovered that they not only accepted cards, but their POS supported NFC!
nerdponx 4y ago
An 8% sales tax on food at bodegas is arguably a regressive consumption tax anyway, so I think it's fine consider this legitimate and ethical civil disobedience in response to inhumane living conditions.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  Bodega cats exist to keep the rats from eating the 8% xD
nsxwolf 4y ago
In high school I got paid minimum wage on the books, and the rest as cash. I've always wondered how many "minimum wage" workers have this arrangement.

Wowfunhappy 4y ago

> It's also normal to not pay sales tax in the city at smaller cafes and every bodega; this is normally passed off as a "cash discount," but it's conspicuously 8.875% rather than the normal credit processing fee. For what it's worth, I live in NYC and have never experienced this. Lots of smaller places give cash discounts, but in my experience it's in the range of 3–4%, which sounds like a CC fee.

woodruffw 4y ago
Which part do you live in? This was the norm in the neighborhood I grew up in (north of UWS), as well as everywhere I've lived (Harlem, north Brooklyn). I wouldn't expect it to be the norm in areas where the foot traffic might pay credit cards by default; I think it's mostly in areas where cash business comes first anyways. Edit: I wish people wouldn't downvote you. It's a massive city, and it's entirely possible to never experience this!
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  I live in Manhattan. My apartment is in Harlem, but I don't spend much time there, I'm usually further downtown.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    That tracks with my experience: I've never received a tax discount for paying in cash downtown. I think some of that has to do with who owns the real estate: ownership tends to be corporate and structured downtown, so businesses' finances tend to be correspondingly more accountable and "by the books."
singhrac 4y ago
I have definitely received larger than 3-4% discounts (5% is pretty common, I've even seen 10%). At the time I had a pretty long discussion about reasons with my friends, but there's a lot of illegal and legal reasons to prefer cash: (a) you can pay employees quicker since credit cards don't disburse funds immediately, (b) you can pay employees "under the table" i.e. ignoring income taxes, (c) you can pay off your suppliers faster (as above), which is really useful for businesses with poorly documented credit (i.e. receiving net 30 or no credit). Depending on the use of the cash, I could see it being economically valuable to offer even a 15% discount (for illegal use) or 5% (for legal, CC processing + credit reasons).
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  To be clear, I've definitely seen higher than 4%, just not frequently. What I have personally never seen is a discount of exactly 8.875%, I would have noticed that!
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Do you have a local coffee place that'll sell you a coffee for 2.75 instead of 3.00 if you pay cash? That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of (and that's normal in the neighborhood I currently live in.)
ryanwaggoner 4y ago
Same here, UWS

yardie 4y ago

I've lived in NYC in the past and informally had discounts of 5-15% for services by paying cash, nothing declared, no receipts. Years long relationships with a mechanic or handyman can net some pretty deep discounts if they know you won't be a problem about billing disputes.

woodruffw 4y ago
Yes, this is my experience as well. I've been doing business with some of the same people my entire life, and "cash only, no receipts, discount between friends" is the norm.
nunez 4y ago
That and there are a TON of small (and not so small) businesses in NYC that are cash only or will not accept cards for transactions under $5 or $10 (and have a majority of transactions that are under that threshold). I remember being absolutely shocked when I went to a super duper hole in the wall place in Dallas that I was _sure_ was cash-only and discovered that they not only accepted cards, but their POS supported NFC!

nerdponx 4y ago

An 8% sales tax on food at bodegas is arguably a regressive consumption tax anyway, so I think it's fine consider this legitimate and ethical civil disobedience in response to inhumane living conditions.

selimthegrim 4y ago
Bodega cats exist to keep the rats from eating the 8% xD

nsxwolf 4y ago

In high school I got paid minimum wage on the books, and the rest as cash. I've always wondered how many "minimum wage" workers have this arrangement.