6 ms·

From my experiences living in NYC, this seems directionally correct and very difficult to measure. Tack on that cost of living in NYC varies wildly depending o

From my experiences living in NYC, this seems directionally correct and very difficult to measure. Tack on that cost of living in NYC varies wildly depending on rent-stabilized and rent-controlled apartment arrangements (rent control is more strict than rent stabilization, rent stabilization is more common than rent control). There are millions of New Yorkers living in rent-stabilized apartments, and they might earn enough to live in their current pad but not be able to move somewhere else at market rate. Similarly, property values have skyrocketed, so people living in homes they bought decades ago might be comfortable, while earning a wage that is technically not "living" by the standards of thhis academic research.

woodruffw 4y ago
Excellent summary. I have a lot of friends who grew up in rent controlled (in the 1940s law sense) units, and they'd probably be considered "below the living wage" according to these sorts of metrics. Combine that with the massive informal economy, and it becomes very difficult to perform accurate econometrics on the city as a whole.
- klyrs 4y ago
  If those people living in rent controlled units move, can they find a place with the same rent? Or would they need to move to a different state, away from their friends, family, community and job?
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Probably the latter. There are many senses in which it's not ideal; at the same time, I think most people in NYC would happily take a rent controlled unit (if they're not already living in one).
    - klyrs 4y ago
      Yep. And what rent-controlled units exist, have huge waiting lists. If you don't like the place, or if your landlord is negligent or an abusive jerk, then too bad, them's the breaks. You're "happy" to take such a place because the alternative is worse. That doesn't mean it's good.
      - chimeracoder 4y ago
        > And what rent-controlled units exist, have huge waiting lists. It's worse than you're describing. Rent-controlled apartments have no waiting lists, because rent control is all but phased out. It only exists for a very small number of apartments that have been occupied continuously since the 1971 by the same person or lawful successors (e.g., spouse). Rent-stabilized apartments are very hard to come by. Not only are they incredibly competitive, but they often require massive broker fees (NYC is one of the few markets where renters are expected to pay the fee for the broker hired by the landlord). So even if you're lucky enough to score a $1000/month rent-stabilized apartment, you may have to pay a broker's fee of $5000 or more[0], on top of the first and last month rent. [0] this is not an exaggeration; the market has exploded in the last year, and broker's fees are unbelievable compared to even a few years ago
        woodruffw 4y ago
        Rent-controlled apartments are indeed basically extinct, but IME rent stabilization has more variance than you're describing: my first independent apartment was rent stabilized, and I didn't have to pay any broker fees. This was in South Harlem.
        chimeracoder 4y ago
        > IME rent stabilization has more variance than you're describing: my first independent apartment was rent stabilized, and I didn't have to pay any broker fees. This was in South Harlem. When was this? I'm talking about the state of rent stabilization today - 2023 - not 2021 or earlier. These days, you might happen to luck into a rent-stabilized apartment, but if you're actively looking for one, you'll be very hard-pressed to actually successfully rent one without paying through the nose.
- twelve40 4y ago
  > the city as a whole this is even worse, it's not for the city but the whole state. How can you perform a study that dumps, say, Manhattan and Rochester into the same dataset is unclear to me.

woodruffw 4y ago

Excellent summary. I have a lot of friends who grew up in rent controlled (in the 1940s law sense) units, and they'd probably be considered "below the living wage" according to these sorts of metrics. Combine that with the massive informal economy, and it becomes very difficult to perform accurate econometrics on the city as a whole.

klyrs 4y ago
If those people living in rent controlled units move, can they find a place with the same rent? Or would they need to move to a different state, away from their friends, family, community and job?
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Probably the latter. There are many senses in which it's not ideal; at the same time, I think most people in NYC would happily take a rent controlled unit (if they're not already living in one).
  - klyrs 4y ago
    Yep. And what rent-controlled units exist, have huge waiting lists. If you don't like the place, or if your landlord is negligent or an abusive jerk, then too bad, them's the breaks. You're "happy" to take such a place because the alternative is worse. That doesn't mean it's good.
    - chimeracoder 4y ago
      > And what rent-controlled units exist, have huge waiting lists. It's worse than you're describing. Rent-controlled apartments have no waiting lists, because rent control is all but phased out. It only exists for a very small number of apartments that have been occupied continuously since the 1971 by the same person or lawful successors (e.g., spouse). Rent-stabilized apartments are very hard to come by. Not only are they incredibly competitive, but they often require massive broker fees (NYC is one of the few markets where renters are expected to pay the fee for the broker hired by the landlord). So even if you're lucky enough to score a $1000/month rent-stabilized apartment, you may have to pay a broker's fee of $5000 or more[0], on top of the first and last month rent. [0] this is not an exaggeration; the market has exploded in the last year, and broker's fees are unbelievable compared to even a few years ago
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        Rent-controlled apartments are indeed basically extinct, but IME rent stabilization has more variance than you're describing: my first independent apartment was rent stabilized, and I didn't have to pay any broker fees. This was in South Harlem.
        chimeracoder 4y ago
        > IME rent stabilization has more variance than you're describing: my first independent apartment was rent stabilized, and I didn't have to pay any broker fees. This was in South Harlem. When was this? I'm talking about the state of rent stabilization today - 2023 - not 2021 or earlier. These days, you might happen to luck into a rent-stabilized apartment, but if you're actively looking for one, you'll be very hard-pressed to actually successfully rent one without paying through the nose.
twelve40 4y ago
> the city as a whole this is even worse, it's not for the city but the whole state. How can you perform a study that dumps, say, Manhattan and Rochester into the same dataset is unclear to me.