4 ms·

I (obviously) lack the data to back up GP's assertion, but anecdotally I've seen very similar things happen in South Brooklyn: the husband working a low-paying

I (obviously) lack the data to back up GP's assertion, but anecdotally I've seen very similar things happen in South Brooklyn: the husband working a low-paying blue collar job on the books, while the wife worked at a nail salon off the books; or the husband taking in an NYPD pension while working security off the books, getting paid in cash. In both instances, the families rented out the other units in their buildings, also accepting rent payments in cash (and not reporting them).

SilasX 4y ago
I was a first date with a woman from a dating site who unleashed her opinions on how unfair it is that the rich evade taxes, and then later dropped that she was in such an arrangement where she rented a spot at a hair salon and was paid entirely in cash and reported almost none of it, while drawing social services for her and her kid. (Bay Area rather than NYC though.)
- stemlord 4y ago
  I don't feel middle class folks evading taxes to more or less survive is a comparable offense to the rich doing so just because they can
  - rayiner 4y ago
    You should. The thing that makes European social democracies work is that everyone is in it together and buys into the system. When you chip away at that universality—when you say that some people should be able to put their personal self interest ahead of the system—the social trust collapses. Our au pair from Germany paid the same total tax rate on her entry level, non-university required office job back home as we paid on a mid six figure income in Maryland. That’s what makes their system work.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      > The thing that makes European social democracies work is that everyone is in it together and buys into the system That's far from true. If we talk about percentage of income, the lower and middle classes subsidise everyone else. There are many legal ways to avoid (not evade, which is illegal) taxes if you have enough upfront capital and that is practiced by every big company and upper-class household regardless of location. There are also lots of ways through corruption, lobbying and under-the-table payments or other favours to unjustly enrich oneself at the expense of the taxpayer if you have the right connections. European countries still "work" but that's more due to inertia and the system is starting to break down; the pandemic accelerated it and we're starting to see the first systemic failures such as the UK (well not technically Europe anymore, but the stage has been set long ago when they were still in the EU). Short of a few outliers such as some Nordic countries that appear to have figured it out (at least for now), everyone else is in the same boat. Europe just enjoys more inertia but it's just a matter of time.
      - rayiner 4y ago
        > true. If we talk about percentage of income, the lower and middle classes subsidise everyone else. No. The top 1% pays a greater share of total taxes (state, local, and federal) than it’s share of total income: https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2019/ https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2019/ > Short of a few outliers such as some Nordic countries that appear to have figured it out (at least for now), everyone else is in the same boat. Ironically, the Nordic countries shift more of the overall tax burden to the middle class than the US: https://taxfoundation.org/publications/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-for-their-government-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/publications/how-scandinavian-coun... In Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, the top tax rates kick in at just 1.3-1.6x the median income. They all rely heavily on VAT, which is regressive. All have low corporate tax rates, and apart from Denmark, they also have competitive capital gains tax rates.

SilasX 4y ago

I was a first date with a woman from a dating site who unleashed her opinions on how unfair it is that the rich evade taxes, and then later dropped that she was in such an arrangement where she rented a spot at a hair salon and was paid entirely in cash and reported almost none of it, while drawing social services for her and her kid. (Bay Area rather than NYC though.)

stemlord 4y ago
I don't feel middle class folks evading taxes to more or less survive is a comparable offense to the rich doing so just because they can
- rayiner 4y ago
  You should. The thing that makes European social democracies work is that everyone is in it together and buys into the system. When you chip away at that universality—when you say that some people should be able to put their personal self interest ahead of the system—the social trust collapses. Our au pair from Germany paid the same total tax rate on her entry level, non-university required office job back home as we paid on a mid six figure income in Maryland. That’s what makes their system work.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    > The thing that makes European social democracies work is that everyone is in it together and buys into the system That's far from true. If we talk about percentage of income, the lower and middle classes subsidise everyone else. There are many legal ways to avoid (not evade, which is illegal) taxes if you have enough upfront capital and that is practiced by every big company and upper-class household regardless of location. There are also lots of ways through corruption, lobbying and under-the-table payments or other favours to unjustly enrich oneself at the expense of the taxpayer if you have the right connections. European countries still "work" but that's more due to inertia and the system is starting to break down; the pandemic accelerated it and we're starting to see the first systemic failures such as the UK (well not technically Europe anymore, but the stage has been set long ago when they were still in the EU). Short of a few outliers such as some Nordic countries that appear to have figured it out (at least for now), everyone else is in the same boat. Europe just enjoys more inertia but it's just a matter of time.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      > true. If we talk about percentage of income, the lower and middle classes subsidise everyone else. No. The top 1% pays a greater share of total taxes (state, local, and federal) than it’s share of total income: https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2019/ https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2019/ > Short of a few outliers such as some Nordic countries that appear to have figured it out (at least for now), everyone else is in the same boat. Ironically, the Nordic countries shift more of the overall tax burden to the middle class than the US: https://taxfoundation.org/publications/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-for-their-government-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/publications/how-scandinavian-coun... In Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, the top tax rates kick in at just 1.3-1.6x the median income. They all rely heavily on VAT, which is regressive. All have low corporate tax rates, and apart from Denmark, they also have competitive capital gains tax rates.