4 ms·

> The issue with these assessments of living wage in NY is that , if you're poor and desperate, there are many ways to "live" that, while not particularly desir

> The issue with these assessments of living wage in NY is that , if you're poor and desperate, there are many ways to "live" that, while not particularly desirable to most people, are certainly available. I came here to say this is merely evidence that a lot of people are willing to put up with a lot of BS to live in NYC. If it wasn't "worth it" to them - for whatever reasons that may be - they'd be living elsewhere.

htag 4y ago
I hear this a lot. I'm inclined to share the sentiment for the young student going to NYU, the intern at a museum/art gallery, or the actor waiting tables while auditioning and doing off broadway. They made a choice, and clearly think the city can offer them enough to deal with poverty and desperation. I'm less inclined to share the sentiment about people that were born and raised in NYC and have their entire social network there. They had less choice in the matter, and they might be even more desperate if they lost connection with their social support group. In addition, many people born and raised in NYC are missing skills that would be considered essential almost anywhere else in the US, such as how to drive a car. Regardless of how/why someone arrived in NYC, the prosperity of it's population is a direct concern of cities. The income of it's tax payers directly correlates to a city's tax base, and we've seen what happens when a city's tax income falls short of projections. Poverty and desperation also seem to go hand in hand with expensive problems (for the city) such as crime and poor public health.
- mattzito 4y ago
  > I'm inclined to share the sentiment for the young student going to NYU, the intern at a museum/art gallery, or the actor waiting tables while auditioning and doing off broadway. They made a choice, and clearly think the city can offer them enough to deal with poverty and desperation. Perhaps I missed these personas in the original article, but these are very charitable examples of "poverty and desperation". Most people interning at museums and art galleries (in my experience) come from families who can at least afford to subsidize the cost of living in NYC. Waiting tables while auditioning and doing off broadway is actually a pretty decent way to earn a living - I had/have friends who have been doing that for 15-20 years and earn solid incomes, in some cases enough to raise a family. I went to nyu, and while it was a while ago, I'm told that if anything, NYU students are more privileged than they were when I went there. The real examples of poverty and desperation are the immigrants who are effectively forced to work in sweatshop conditions, or the women who pick up hours here and there in childcare in their neighborhood, or the security guards who live out of their cars or in homeless shelters because they don't get paid enough to end up in a stable living environment. In some cases, they don't have a network outside of NYC they could lean on, or don't have the resources to get to another city, or are (justifiably) scared of what would happen when they got there.
hanniabu 4y ago
Ah yes, the classic "if you can't afford it then move out" meme. Who will collect garbage? Who will serve tables? Who will do all the jobs that most people would hate to do and we pay them peanuts for it? When money is so tight who has time to take off to go interview at jobs 2hrs away and afford the money to commute to the interview? Who has the time go look at apartments 2 hrs at when you're working 2-3 jobs? Why is it so difficult to recognize there's a systemic problem?
- itake 4y ago
  Clearly, business owners still have access to low income labor, otherwise there would be no one serving the tables or collecting the garbage. If employers can't find staffing, they can raise wages to make their job offers more attractive. I don't think the problems you stated exist.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    Pedantic - but contrary to popular belief, sanitation workers are not paid minimum wage - they start at $40k and get paid >$83k after 5 1/2 years: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dsny/site/resources/press-releases/become-a-new-york-city-sanitation-worker-for-your-community-for-your-family-for-you https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dsny/site/resources/press-releas... This, with a pretty good pension. Comparing sanitation workers to low paid service workers (WITHOUT a pension) is like comparing apples to oranges.
    - itake 4y ago
      Valid point. I only mentioned the sanitation workers b/c the original author did.
CivBase 4y ago
> If it wasn't "worth it" to them - for whatever reasons that may be - they'd be living elsewhere. Moving can be extremely costly and people who don't earn a "living wage" probably aren't traveling to see if the grass is greener somewhere else. I've been watching Louis Rossmann's saga for a few years and it has been interesting to see what it took to get him to finally leave NYC. And I'm sure he had far more means to leave than most.
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  Moving is only costly if you have a lot of possessions.
  - CivBase 4y ago
    ...or a job ...or a business ...or a family ...or a disability ...or an ongoing education ...or economically valuable connections ...or long term contracts etc. For many people, there's much more to moving than just physically relocating people and possessions.
rayiner 4y ago
Yeah but those “reasons” aren’t necessarily appealing ones. My uncle and cousins moved to Queens a few years ago when they immigrated to America. It’s not because they love the nightlife and going to MoMA. It’s because that’s where the Bangladeshi community is—the folks who can help find a low paying service job with limited English skills or knowledge of America. New York City’s population is actually declining if you exclude international migration—I.e. if you focus on the people who have realistic choices about where to live.

htag 4y ago

I hear this a lot. I'm inclined to share the sentiment for the young student going to NYU, the intern at a museum/art gallery, or the actor waiting tables while auditioning and doing off broadway. They made a choice, and clearly think the city can offer them enough to deal with poverty and desperation. I'm less inclined to share the sentiment about people that were born and raised in NYC and have their entire social network there. They had less choice in the matter, and they might be even more desperate if they lost connection with their social support group. In addition, many people born and raised in NYC are missing skills that would be considered essential almost anywhere else in the US, such as how to drive a car. Regardless of how/why someone arrived in NYC, the prosperity of it's population is a direct concern of cities. The income of it's tax payers directly correlates to a city's tax base, and we've seen what happens when a city's tax income falls short of projections. Poverty and desperation also seem to go hand in hand with expensive problems (for the city) such as crime and poor public health.

mattzito 4y ago
> I'm inclined to share the sentiment for the young student going to NYU, the intern at a museum/art gallery, or the actor waiting tables while auditioning and doing off broadway. They made a choice, and clearly think the city can offer them enough to deal with poverty and desperation. Perhaps I missed these personas in the original article, but these are very charitable examples of "poverty and desperation". Most people interning at museums and art galleries (in my experience) come from families who can at least afford to subsidize the cost of living in NYC. Waiting tables while auditioning and doing off broadway is actually a pretty decent way to earn a living - I had/have friends who have been doing that for 15-20 years and earn solid incomes, in some cases enough to raise a family. I went to nyu, and while it was a while ago, I'm told that if anything, NYU students are more privileged than they were when I went there. The real examples of poverty and desperation are the immigrants who are effectively forced to work in sweatshop conditions, or the women who pick up hours here and there in childcare in their neighborhood, or the security guards who live out of their cars or in homeless shelters because they don't get paid enough to end up in a stable living environment. In some cases, they don't have a network outside of NYC they could lean on, or don't have the resources to get to another city, or are (justifiably) scared of what would happen when they got there.

hanniabu 4y ago

Ah yes, the classic "if you can't afford it then move out" meme. Who will collect garbage? Who will serve tables? Who will do all the jobs that most people would hate to do and we pay them peanuts for it? When money is so tight who has time to take off to go interview at jobs 2hrs away and afford the money to commute to the interview? Who has the time go look at apartments 2 hrs at when you're working 2-3 jobs? Why is it so difficult to recognize there's a systemic problem?

itake 4y ago
Clearly, business owners still have access to low income labor, otherwise there would be no one serving the tables or collecting the garbage. If employers can't find staffing, they can raise wages to make their job offers more attractive. I don't think the problems you stated exist.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Pedantic - but contrary to popular belief, sanitation workers are not paid minimum wage - they start at $40k and get paid >$83k after 5 1/2 years: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dsny/site/resources/press-releases/become-a-new-york-city-sanitation-worker-for-your-community-for-your-family-for-you https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dsny/site/resources/press-releas... This, with a pretty good pension. Comparing sanitation workers to low paid service workers (WITHOUT a pension) is like comparing apples to oranges.
  - itake 4y ago
    Valid point. I only mentioned the sanitation workers b/c the original author did.

CivBase 4y ago

> If it wasn't "worth it" to them - for whatever reasons that may be - they'd be living elsewhere. Moving can be extremely costly and people who don't earn a "living wage" probably aren't traveling to see if the grass is greener somewhere else. I've been watching Louis Rossmann's saga for a few years and it has been interesting to see what it took to get him to finally leave NYC. And I'm sure he had far more means to leave than most.

BurningFrog 4y ago
Moving is only costly if you have a lot of possessions.
- CivBase 4y ago
  ...or a job ...or a business ...or a family ...or a disability ...or an ongoing education ...or economically valuable connections ...or long term contracts etc. For many people, there's much more to moving than just physically relocating people and possessions.

rayiner 4y ago

Yeah but those “reasons” aren’t necessarily appealing ones. My uncle and cousins moved to Queens a few years ago when they immigrated to America. It’s not because they love the nightlife and going to MoMA. It’s because that’s where the Bangladeshi community is—the folks who can help find a low paying service job with limited English skills or knowledge of America. New York City’s population is actually declining if you exclude international migration—I.e. if you focus on the people who have realistic choices about where to live.