3 ms·

> There is a large, technically illegal, economy to NYC which How do you know that? Your next statement is that there's no good way to measure that income, how

> There is a large, technically illegal, economy to NYC which How do you know that? Your next statement is that there's no good way to measure that income, how do you know how large that economy is? It's either measurable, or immeasurable. You can't claim the know it's dimensions and also that you can't measure it's dimensions.

kube-system 4y ago
One can determine that something is large without measuring it accurately.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Yes, but there'd still be something more than conjecture and a single anecdote.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    There's this: https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-taxpayer-compliance-research https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-taxpayer-compliance-resea...
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      That's a lot better than anecdotes, for sure. The short answer seems to be about 83% tax compliance.
  - InitialLastName 4y ago
    Anyone who has lived in the (NYC metro) region can almost certainly provide you more anecdotes. Filtering by circumstances I can personally attest to in NYC proper: - 3 situations where nannies were being paid entirely under the table (this one is less common now that everyone I know is over 26 and needs health insurance) - a small (legitimate) business owner who regularly employs a handyman under the table - restaurant staff who don't report cash tips (too common to count) - Street vendors all over the place (including those who were openly selling cannabis prior to legalization) - Tour guides working entirely for cash - Lots of technically-illegal off-the-books living situations (a living wage goes a lot further when you're willing to live in a basement studio apartment with no windows). - Small stores with a "regulars" discount that never hits the register
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Isn't there some wisdom about "the plural of anecdote is not data"?
      - InitialLastName 4y ago
        Probably, but some phenomena can exist that don't get tracked well. At some point, a plurality of primary testimony that N is pervasive needs to be enough to break through the paradox of the heap.
tristor 4y ago
> How do you know that? Your next statement is that there's no good way to measure that income, how do you know how large that economy is? Because by the books, 60% of the residents of the most populous and most expensive metro in the US are living there while earning on paper less than a living wage, yet somehow still manage to do so. Either one or more of the following must be true: 1. There is a large off-the-books economy. 2. The study in the article incorrectly determines what a "living wage" is. 3. The vast majority of the people living in New York City are in absolutely dire circumstances but somehow won't leave to literally any other city in the US where they would immediately earn more relative to the cost of living. I think /both/ #1 and #2 are correct, and that #3 might be correct for some people, but most people in New York City /like/ living there, they feel connected to the city, and ingrained in its culture, which includes a very large amount of #1.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  3. The vast majority of the people living in New York City are in absolutely dire circumstances but somehow won't leave to literally any other city in the US where they would immediately earn more relative to the cost of living. To this last point, moving has costs. At minimum transport costs (fuel, bus ticket, whatever). If they have some furniture worth taking, they need a U-Haul. People might not have the small amount of cash/credit required to move across the country. Staying in poverty in NYC might be their only option.
  - tristor 4y ago
    While you're correct, and I do account for this in my statement, most studies on the topic found that people refuse to move not due to financial reasons but due to social support systems, primarily family or cultural connections. Something that's not entirely unique, but relatively uncommon in the US, is large cultural and ethnic enclaves in cities, New York City happens to be home to largest number of these, and therefore many people grow up in New York City ingrained into a culture that ties into their ethnicity, and the city itself, in a way which they would not find anywhere else in the US if they moved. Leaving this and family behind to leave the city is considered untenable by many people, especially in cultures that emphasize family connections and multi-generational households as the norm. These emotional draws are much more meaningful and significant causes for why people don't move than whether or not they can afford the U-Haul one time.

kube-system 4y ago

One can determine that something is large without measuring it accurately.

rootusrootus 4y ago
Yes, but there'd still be something more than conjecture and a single anecdote.
- kube-system 4y ago
  There's this: https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-taxpayer-compliance-research https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-taxpayer-compliance-resea...
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    That's a lot better than anecdotes, for sure. The short answer seems to be about 83% tax compliance.
- InitialLastName 4y ago
  Anyone who has lived in the (NYC metro) region can almost certainly provide you more anecdotes. Filtering by circumstances I can personally attest to in NYC proper: - 3 situations where nannies were being paid entirely under the table (this one is less common now that everyone I know is over 26 and needs health insurance) - a small (legitimate) business owner who regularly employs a handyman under the table - restaurant staff who don't report cash tips (too common to count) - Street vendors all over the place (including those who were openly selling cannabis prior to legalization) - Tour guides working entirely for cash - Lots of technically-illegal off-the-books living situations (a living wage goes a lot further when you're willing to live in a basement studio apartment with no windows). - Small stores with a "regulars" discount that never hits the register
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Isn't there some wisdom about "the plural of anecdote is not data"?
    - InitialLastName 4y ago
      Probably, but some phenomena can exist that don't get tracked well. At some point, a plurality of primary testimony that N is pervasive needs to be enough to break through the paradox of the heap.

tristor 4y ago

> How do you know that? Your next statement is that there's no good way to measure that income, how do you know how large that economy is? Because by the books, 60% of the residents of the most populous and most expensive metro in the US are living there while earning on paper less than a living wage, yet somehow still manage to do so. Either one or more of the following must be true: 1. There is a large off-the-books economy. 2. The study in the article incorrectly determines what a "living wage" is. 3. The vast majority of the people living in New York City are in absolutely dire circumstances but somehow won't leave to literally any other city in the US where they would immediately earn more relative to the cost of living. I think /both/ #1 and #2 are correct, and that #3 might be correct for some people, but most people in New York City /like/ living there, they feel connected to the city, and ingrained in its culture, which includes a very large amount of #1.

alistairSH 4y ago
3. The vast majority of the people living in New York City are in absolutely dire circumstances but somehow won't leave to literally any other city in the US where they would immediately earn more relative to the cost of living. To this last point, moving has costs. At minimum transport costs (fuel, bus ticket, whatever). If they have some furniture worth taking, they need a U-Haul. People might not have the small amount of cash/credit required to move across the country. Staying in poverty in NYC might be their only option.
- tristor 4y ago
  While you're correct, and I do account for this in my statement, most studies on the topic found that people refuse to move not due to financial reasons but due to social support systems, primarily family or cultural connections. Something that's not entirely unique, but relatively uncommon in the US, is large cultural and ethnic enclaves in cities, New York City happens to be home to largest number of these, and therefore many people grow up in New York City ingrained into a culture that ties into their ethnicity, and the city itself, in a way which they would not find anywhere else in the US if they moved. Leaving this and family behind to leave the city is considered untenable by many people, especially in cultures that emphasize family connections and multi-generational households as the norm. These emotional draws are much more meaningful and significant causes for why people don't move than whether or not they can afford the U-Haul one time.