5 ms·

Does this not necessitate that 60% are subsidized in some fashion, e.g. geared-to-income housing, food stamps, etc? That seems like an astronomical number. If t

Does this not necessitate that 60% are subsidized in some fashion, e.g. geared-to-income housing, food stamps, etc? That seems like an astronomical number. If that is not the case, then why does the living wage estimate not account for this? What are the unmet minimum standards for 60% of New Yorkers? These are not rhetorical questions. I'm asking.

j0hnyl 4y ago
In NYC lots of younger folks are also subsidized by mom & dad and/or live 5 to an apartment.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Sharing an apartment doesn't mean the minimum standard? I.e. one has to be able to afford a one-bedroom apartment on their own, or else they don't have a living wage?
  - z0r 4y ago
    You can also beg for food on the street and technically survive, so there has to be some reasonable standard for what living wage. I'm pretty sure the poster you are replying to is not implying that those 5 people would be splitting a 5 bedroom apartment... Probably more like 5 people in a 2 bedroom.
  - unglaublich 4y ago
    Yes. Plus a kid. Because that's what society relies on in the end, that we don't stop existing after a generation because it was too expensive.
    - slothtrop 4y ago
      This could be trivially rigged by walling up the current large open apartment spaces to create very small private apartments - then voila, a large demographic suddenly has a living wage. Yet the living standard would arguably be worse. Or do we plan on drastically increasing the builds and availability of one-bedroom apartments in a metropolis through sprawl? That doesn't sound very YIMBY.
      - nobody9999 4y ago
        >Or do we plan on drastically increasing the builds and availability of one-bedroom apartments in a metropolis through sprawl? That doesn't sound very YIMBY. Not through sprawl necessarily, but yes that's the plan[0][1] [0] https://www.cityandstateny.com/policy/2023/01/hochul-wants-build-800k-housing-units-over-next-decade-how-do-you-do/381381/ https://www.cityandstateny.com/policy/2023/01/hochul-wants-b... [1] https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2022-12-08/new-york-mayor-pledges-to-boost-citys-housing-by-500-000-units https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2022-12-08/new...
- quotz 4y ago
  Absolutely. I know plenty of people in their 20s doing this. Living room converted into bedroom, 4 people (including couples), still paying some 2K in rent a month, but hey its manhattan
rcme 4y ago
One possibility would be living at your parents place. You don’t earn a living wage, but your parents subsidize your existence. That probably accounts for a lot of ~75% of Gen Z not earning a living wage.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Yes, I wonder how big of a piece this captures. Also age, education.
- treeman79 4y ago
  Yep. My daughter and her fiancé lived with us 2 years while they saved up to get a down payment. Thankfully we have a furnished basement. His parents payed a bunch of the deposit so they could get a better house closer to them.
cloutchaser 4y ago
It's a bit confusing at a definitional level too. If 60% don't earn a living wage, how are they surviving? Surely your definition of "living wage" is more of a marketing gimick than anything, if 60% of people manage to "live" without earning the "living wage"? This definition seems more like - earning a wage that allows living seperately from your parents and without any additional subsidies. Which is not exactly "living". Ask someone in bangladesh or ethiopia about "living wages"
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lm28469 4y ago
  > how are they surviving? "Living wage" isn't "surviving wage"
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    You will admit though that they are deliberately conflated in the public discourse.
- dumpsterlid 4y ago
  [dead]
- gaterin 4y ago
  It's good to see people finally admitting America is incapable of being greater than Bangladesh or Ethiopia.
  - lovecg 4y ago
    It’s delusional to think that a lot of people from those countries you mentioned wouldn’t want to swap lives with one of those oppressed NYC workers in a second.
    - cloutchaser 4y ago
warmcompress 4y ago
https://blogs.cornell.edu/livingwage/about-the-atlas/ https://blogs.cornell.edu/livingwage/about-the-atlas/
sct202 4y ago
A big one is people are probably living in higher densities than the data assumes, eg the housing budget for a living wage assumes 1 single adult will live alone in a studio. In my younger years, I knew a lot of people who were sleeping like 3+ adults in a 1 bedroom in NYC, which obviously not ideal but people make it work if they don't have the money: "The FMR (HUD Fair Market Rents) estimates include utility costs and vary depending on the number of bedrooms in each unit, from zero to four bedrooms. We assumed that a one adult family would rent a single occupancy unit (zero bedrooms) for an individual adult household, that a two adult family would rent a one bedroom apartment, and that two adult and one or two child families would rent a two bedroom apartment. We further assumed that families with three children would rent a three bedroom apartment (the adults are allocated one bedroom and the children two bedrooms)." https://livingwage.mit.edu/resources/Living-Wage-Users-Guide-Technical-Documentation-2022-05-10.pdf https://livingwage.mit.edu/resources/Living-Wage-Users-Guide...

j0hnyl 4y ago

In NYC lots of younger folks are also subsidized by mom & dad and/or live 5 to an apartment.

slothtrop 4y ago
Sharing an apartment doesn't mean the minimum standard? I.e. one has to be able to afford a one-bedroom apartment on their own, or else they don't have a living wage?
- z0r 4y ago
  You can also beg for food on the street and technically survive, so there has to be some reasonable standard for what living wage. I'm pretty sure the poster you are replying to is not implying that those 5 people would be splitting a 5 bedroom apartment... Probably more like 5 people in a 2 bedroom.
- unglaublich 4y ago
  Yes. Plus a kid. Because that's what society relies on in the end, that we don't stop existing after a generation because it was too expensive.
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    This could be trivially rigged by walling up the current large open apartment spaces to create very small private apartments - then voila, a large demographic suddenly has a living wage. Yet the living standard would arguably be worse. Or do we plan on drastically increasing the builds and availability of one-bedroom apartments in a metropolis through sprawl? That doesn't sound very YIMBY.
    - nobody9999 4y ago
      >Or do we plan on drastically increasing the builds and availability of one-bedroom apartments in a metropolis through sprawl? That doesn't sound very YIMBY. Not through sprawl necessarily, but yes that's the plan[0][1] [0] https://www.cityandstateny.com/policy/2023/01/hochul-wants-build-800k-housing-units-over-next-decade-how-do-you-do/381381/ https://www.cityandstateny.com/policy/2023/01/hochul-wants-b... [1] https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2022-12-08/new-york-mayor-pledges-to-boost-citys-housing-by-500-000-units https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2022-12-08/new...
quotz 4y ago
Absolutely. I know plenty of people in their 20s doing this. Living room converted into bedroom, 4 people (including couples), still paying some 2K in rent a month, but hey its manhattan

rcme 4y ago

One possibility would be living at your parents place. You don’t earn a living wage, but your parents subsidize your existence. That probably accounts for a lot of ~75% of Gen Z not earning a living wage.

slothtrop 4y ago
Yes, I wonder how big of a piece this captures. Also age, education.
treeman79 4y ago
Yep. My daughter and her fiancé lived with us 2 years while they saved up to get a down payment. Thankfully we have a furnished basement. His parents payed a bunch of the deposit so they could get a better house closer to them.

cloutchaser 4y ago

It's a bit confusing at a definitional level too. If 60% don't earn a living wage, how are they surviving? Surely your definition of "living wage" is more of a marketing gimick than anything, if 60% of people manage to "live" without earning the "living wage"? This definition seems more like - earning a wage that allows living seperately from your parents and without any additional subsidies. Which is not exactly "living". Ask someone in bangladesh or ethiopia about "living wages"

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lm28469 4y ago
> how are they surviving? "Living wage" isn't "surviving wage"
- slothtrop 4y ago
  You will admit though that they are deliberately conflated in the public discourse.
dumpsterlid 4y ago
[dead]
gaterin 4y ago
It's good to see people finally admitting America is incapable of being greater than Bangladesh or Ethiopia.
- lovecg 4y ago
  It’s delusional to think that a lot of people from those countries you mentioned wouldn’t want to swap lives with one of those oppressed NYC workers in a second.
  - cloutchaser 4y ago

warmcompress 4y ago

https://blogs.cornell.edu/livingwage/about-the-atlas/ https://blogs.cornell.edu/livingwage/about-the-atlas/

sct202 4y ago

A big one is people are probably living in higher densities than the data assumes, eg the housing budget for a living wage assumes 1 single adult will live alone in a studio. In my younger years, I knew a lot of people who were sleeping like 3+ adults in a 1 bedroom in NYC, which obviously not ideal but people make it work if they don't have the money: "The FMR (HUD Fair Market Rents) estimates include utility costs and vary depending on the number of bedrooms in each unit, from zero to four bedrooms. We assumed that a one adult family would rent a single occupancy unit (zero bedrooms) for an individual adult household, that a two adult family would rent a one bedroom apartment, and that two adult and one or two child families would rent a two bedroom apartment. We further assumed that families with three children would rent a three bedroom apartment (the adults are allocated one bedroom and the children two bedrooms)." https://livingwage.mit.edu/resources/Living-Wage-Users-Guide-Technical-Documentation-2022-05-10.pdf https://livingwage.mit.edu/resources/Living-Wage-Users-Guide...