5 ms·

This reminds me of times in the first couple of years of my career, where me and some other junior people were terrified that we weren't going to get a project

by dkarl 4y ago

This reminds me of times in the first couple of years of my career, where me and some other junior people were terrified that we weren't going to get a project done on time. We would be wracking our brains for out-of-the-box ways to get it done, whispering to each other, having trouble sleeping, and then we would be amazed that the lead developer would simply go to our manager (while we were still desperately brainstorming) and tell him we wouldn't finish on time. And nothing awful would happen. The lead developer was fine. We were fine. The project finished late. Nobody got fired. Now as a senior developer it's hard for me see why I was so terrified. Some managers yell and bluster. (Or, they used to, back in the day.) Some managers shame and insinuate. Some managers obliquely threaten. But they all, no matter how they express their authority, have to face up to the unpredictability of project planning. The question is not whether your manager is nice or mean. The question is, do they really think they're better off firing you and replacing you? Whether because they think they can get an upgrade or simply to pin the blame on you for something. After you've been around the block once or twice, you understand that a manager who is chill to your face is ultimately subject to the same motivations as a manager who uses stress as a weapon. I wonder what it's like for airline mechanics? They are represented by unions. I would think that safety infractions would be the real potential career killers, but that's just me guessing.

kqr 4y ago
"It's not management's fault because engineers should expect to and put up with managers treating them harshly (yelling, shaming) when they are doing the right thing"? Is this really the defense we're using?
- dkarl 4y ago
  No, the point is that employment security depends on your manager's incentives, your employment protections, and your ability to get a new job if you lose one. This has very little to do with how your manager treats people. Somebody who has been in the industry for a while and seen people fired and laid off has learned that someone's job is no more or less safe with a friendly, empathetic manager. (Your personal stress levels are another question, and an important one, but complying with a toxic manager doesn't decrease your stress levels, so it isn't leverage to make you do or not do anything besides change jobs.) That's why I mentioned aviation mechanics being unionized, and I wondered if a worker's history of safety infractions follows them. Those would seem to be very important factors. A safety-critical worker should be able to say, "Look boss, you're telling me if I don't break this rule I could lose this job, but 1) the union has my back, and 2) if I do break this rule I might not get my next job." That's important, because threatening in a loud and obviously abusive way is not the only way to make someone afraid for their job. You could even say that it's the amateur hour way to manipulate an employee. If management wants to scare people into skimping on safety, they can do it without doing anything you could point at specifically as "abusive" behavior, so you need protections that don't rely on identifying obvious misbehavior by management. EDIT: Edited to point out and clarify, I didn't say anything about the behavior of the manager in my story, and I don't remember the manager being angry or threatening. Actually I can barely remember his face, and I doubt it had anything to do with him. I think it's something that junior people bring with them, just like they're scared of disappointing teachers, scared of their high school principal, etc., in a way that's hard to understand when you're older.

by dkarl 4y ago

kqr 4y ago

"It's not management's fault because engineers should expect to and put up with managers treating them harshly (yelling, shaming) when they are doing the right thing"? Is this really the defense we're using?

dkarl 4y ago
No, the point is that employment security depends on your manager's incentives, your employment protections, and your ability to get a new job if you lose one. This has very little to do with how your manager treats people. Somebody who has been in the industry for a while and seen people fired and laid off has learned that someone's job is no more or less safe with a friendly, empathetic manager. (Your personal stress levels are another question, and an important one, but complying with a toxic manager doesn't decrease your stress levels, so it isn't leverage to make you do or not do anything besides change jobs.) That's why I mentioned aviation mechanics being unionized, and I wondered if a worker's history of safety infractions follows them. Those would seem to be very important factors. A safety-critical worker should be able to say, "Look boss, you're telling me if I don't break this rule I could lose this job, but 1) the union has my back, and 2) if I do break this rule I might not get my next job." That's important, because threatening in a loud and obviously abusive way is not the only way to make someone afraid for their job. You could even say that it's the amateur hour way to manipulate an employee. If management wants to scare people into skimping on safety, they can do it without doing anything you could point at specifically as "abusive" behavior, so you need protections that don't rely on identifying obvious misbehavior by management. EDIT: Edited to point out and clarify, I didn't say anything about the behavior of the manager in my story, and I don't remember the manager being angry or threatening. Actually I can barely remember his face, and I doubt it had anything to do with him. I think it's something that junior people bring with them, just like they're scared of disappointing teachers, scared of their high school principal, etc., in a way that's hard to understand when you're older.