4 ms·

Is it not the same doctors that vote to cap the amount of doctors places in higher education in order to protect wages? Why are we not training as many doctors

by rcarr 4y ago

Is it not the same doctors that vote to cap the amount of doctors places in higher education in order to protect wages? Why are we not training as many doctors who meet the educational requirements as possible? Every year come A Level results there’s a kid in the paper with AAA grades who can’t get into medical school. It’s a disgrace.

kodyo 4y ago
It's so crazy how socialism keeps failing people. Totally unpredictable.
- jules-jules 4y ago
  It's called starving the beast. A decades long deliberate policy of funding cuts which ultimately drives people into private care.
- InitialLastName 4y ago
  You'd be making a meaningful point if the market-based solution didn't also have some disastrous failure modes.
- MrAlex94 4y ago
  > In short, the NHS is more correctly seen as nationalised rather than socialised medicine, achieving the first three levels of a socialist health service identified here. It can be said to have socialist principles in the limited distributional sense and has some socialist means to achieve these. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10170226/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10170226/ The study is from 1997, and the NHS has definitely changed in the 25 years since, arguably becoming more privatised since the Health and Social Care Act 2012 (among other decisions).
- arbitrary_name 4y ago
  I'd still rather deal with that than the market driven system in the USA. Btw, NHS is not socialism.
  - kodyo 4y ago
    That's even worse! All the downsides and the workers don't even get to control the means of production.
    - Tanjreeve 4y ago
      The UK generally does somehow manage to hit the sweet spot of all the expense and duplicated effort of market solutions with all the remote decision making and political weaponisation of government solutions and get the worst aspects of them both.
MrAlex94 4y ago
Seems to me it’s a governmental decision? [1] > Despite the NHS’s clear need for more medics, the number of medical and dentistry students each year is capped by the government to control costs, as it subsidises the courses. > The Secretary of State for Education, James Cleverly, commented recently that it's not possible to "flick a switch" to increase the numbers of doctors undergoing training, due to having to ensure there is enough funding and capacity for teaching and placements. 1. https://www.newstatesman.com/spotlight/healthcare/2022/08/amid-nhs-staff-shortage-uk-reintroduces-cap-on-medical-students https://www.newstatesman.com/spotlight/healthcare/2022/08/am...
- rcarr 4y ago
  I did not know this thank you for bringing it to my attention. Seems like a pretty feeble excuse from Cleverly though. In my opinion, anyone who's capable of it and wants to should study Medicine should be supported in doing so because the societal benefits are so great. The fact that we stop 17,000 from doing so is an absolute disgrace. We waste money on a lot of shit in this country, I'm sure the money could be found to send more people on to study medicine. It seems to be universal across the country that councils lay new block paving only to dig it up a few months later on a whim for some reason or another, that could be a place to start.
  - MrAlex94 4y ago
    Oddly enough, I’ve heard the same thing regarding doctors voting for a cap. Wonder where that’s from? It’s an awful excuse; I agree with you. If we were to be quite "cold" about this and think of it in a purely beneficial sense to the economy, surely the economic benefits of a healthy population far outweigh the costs, although I imagine it’s quite hard to "quantify" such a measurement?
  - a_c 4y ago
    Depends on how you see it, medical degree is a supply chain problem, subjected to the same bullwhip effect. We can't predict demand of doctors 5 year down the road. The worst we could do is to treat today's demand as demand for 5 year in the future. If we double the supply today, in 5 years we will have double supply, hopefully without another pandemic. Many things could happen, if funding stays the same, benefits among all doctors will be affected, or we appropriate funding from other endeavours. If the demand doesn't sustain, funding get cut, less students find it attractive as a career, supply reduces. In reality many more factors get into play. So when Cleverly said "we can't flip a switch", there are some merits to it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullwhip_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullwhip_effect

by rcarr 4y ago

kodyo 4y ago

It's so crazy how socialism keeps failing people. Totally unpredictable.

jules-jules 4y ago
It's called starving the beast. A decades long deliberate policy of funding cuts which ultimately drives people into private care.
InitialLastName 4y ago
You'd be making a meaningful point if the market-based solution didn't also have some disastrous failure modes.
MrAlex94 4y ago
> In short, the NHS is more correctly seen as nationalised rather than socialised medicine, achieving the first three levels of a socialist health service identified here. It can be said to have socialist principles in the limited distributional sense and has some socialist means to achieve these. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10170226/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10170226/ The study is from 1997, and the NHS has definitely changed in the 25 years since, arguably becoming more privatised since the Health and Social Care Act 2012 (among other decisions).
arbitrary_name 4y ago
I'd still rather deal with that than the market driven system in the USA. Btw, NHS is not socialism.
- kodyo 4y ago
  That's even worse! All the downsides and the workers don't even get to control the means of production.
  - Tanjreeve 4y ago
    The UK generally does somehow manage to hit the sweet spot of all the expense and duplicated effort of market solutions with all the remote decision making and political weaponisation of government solutions and get the worst aspects of them both.

MrAlex94 4y ago

Seems to me it’s a governmental decision? [1] > Despite the NHS’s clear need for more medics, the number of medical and dentistry students each year is capped by the government to control costs, as it subsidises the courses. > The Secretary of State for Education, James Cleverly, commented recently that it's not possible to "flick a switch" to increase the numbers of doctors undergoing training, due to having to ensure there is enough funding and capacity for teaching and placements. 1. https://www.newstatesman.com/spotlight/healthcare/2022/08/amid-nhs-staff-shortage-uk-reintroduces-cap-on-medical-students https://www.newstatesman.com/spotlight/healthcare/2022/08/am...

rcarr 4y ago
I did not know this thank you for bringing it to my attention. Seems like a pretty feeble excuse from Cleverly though. In my opinion, anyone who's capable of it and wants to should study Medicine should be supported in doing so because the societal benefits are so great. The fact that we stop 17,000 from doing so is an absolute disgrace. We waste money on a lot of shit in this country, I'm sure the money could be found to send more people on to study medicine. It seems to be universal across the country that councils lay new block paving only to dig it up a few months later on a whim for some reason or another, that could be a place to start.
- MrAlex94 4y ago
  Oddly enough, I’ve heard the same thing regarding doctors voting for a cap. Wonder where that’s from? It’s an awful excuse; I agree with you. If we were to be quite "cold" about this and think of it in a purely beneficial sense to the economy, surely the economic benefits of a healthy population far outweigh the costs, although I imagine it’s quite hard to "quantify" such a measurement?
- a_c 4y ago
  Depends on how you see it, medical degree is a supply chain problem, subjected to the same bullwhip effect. We can't predict demand of doctors 5 year down the road. The worst we could do is to treat today's demand as demand for 5 year in the future. If we double the supply today, in 5 years we will have double supply, hopefully without another pandemic. Many things could happen, if funding stays the same, benefits among all doctors will be affected, or we appropriate funding from other endeavours. If the demand doesn't sustain, funding get cut, less students find it attractive as a career, supply reduces. In reality many more factors get into play. So when Cleverly said "we can't flip a switch", there are some merits to it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullwhip_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullwhip_effect