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Hm, at first I thought you were being unnecessarily dramatic, but vaccines have caused huge problems in chickens, where an unvaccinated chicken is now almost gu

Hm, at first I thought you were being unnecessarily dramatic, but vaccines have caused huge problems in chickens, where an unvaccinated chicken is now almost guaranteed to die. You could easily create a similar situation. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/leaky-vaccines-enhance-spread-of-deadlier-chicken-viruses https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/leaky-vac...

alwaysanagenda 4y ago
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ejb999 4y ago
It's not just vaccines - lots of examples where we do one thing to solve one problem, and it causes several problems down the road that then need to be solved for. draining the everglades, using ddt, importing asian carp, lionfish, releasing pythons in the everglades etc - mother nature keeps telling us that she already figured a lot of things out over millions of years, so tread carefully. Not all of those things were done deliberately to solve a problem - but they were all done by mankind, and we are still trying to recover from the after effects.
dmix 4y ago
That particular vacinne was unique, in that the virus still survived: > Infection of the host and the transmission of the virus are not inhibited by the vaccine. This contrasts with most other vaccines, where infection of the host is prevented. Leaky vaccines are a serious problem but only a small group of vaccines fit that definition and, so far, that's the only real example of it happening in animals at scale. https://www.livescience.com/51682-vaccines-evolve-deadlier-viruses.html https://www.livescience.com/51682-vaccines-evolve-deadlier-v...
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  As far as I know it's rare for vaccines to actually prevent transmission for viruses. This is why quite a few vets were extremely cautious about the covid vaccine. I think we got lucky that it didn't turn into a marek situation with covid. And it still could.
- RetpolineDrama 4y ago
  >Leaky vaccines are a serious problem but only a small group of vaccines fit that definition and, so far, that's the only real example of it happening in animals at scale. One problem is that BigPharmaCo has an extreme financial incentive to induce this scenario. They could turn every person on earth into a lifelong subscriber.
- oldgradstudent 4y ago
  > Leaky vaccines are a serious problem but only a small group of vaccines fit that definition and, so far, that's the only real example of it happening in animals at scale There is some evidence that one of the most common childhood vaccines, the acellular pertussis vaccine, may be in this category. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1314688110 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1314688110
hellothere1337 4y ago
this seems great for vaccine producers though, you just create an arms race which means infinite revenue
tptacek 4y ago
That would be fitting, because, at least in North America, neither has any meaningful ecological role outside of being livestock. If anything, it's ecologically problematic to make honeybees even more competitive against native pollinators. Let the Paenibacillus do its work!
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  What natural pollinators exist in north america and are they adapted enough to an agriculture based society that they will meet our pollinating needs? If you have a cheap, easy solution to pollination in america for various industrialized crops, you can go make bank right now.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Of course not. Agriculture in the US is an industrial process, not an ecological one. Nature doesn't want California to be producing all these almonds, but that's what the bees are there to help happen.

alwaysanagenda 4y ago

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ejb999 4y ago

It's not just vaccines - lots of examples where we do one thing to solve one problem, and it causes several problems down the road that then need to be solved for. draining the everglades, using ddt, importing asian carp, lionfish, releasing pythons in the everglades etc - mother nature keeps telling us that she already figured a lot of things out over millions of years, so tread carefully. Not all of those things were done deliberately to solve a problem - but they were all done by mankind, and we are still trying to recover from the after effects.

dmix 4y ago

That particular vacinne was unique, in that the virus still survived: > Infection of the host and the transmission of the virus are not inhibited by the vaccine. This contrasts with most other vaccines, where infection of the host is prevented. Leaky vaccines are a serious problem but only a small group of vaccines fit that definition and, so far, that's the only real example of it happening in animals at scale. https://www.livescience.com/51682-vaccines-evolve-deadlier-viruses.html https://www.livescience.com/51682-vaccines-evolve-deadlier-v...

cloutchaser 4y ago
As far as I know it's rare for vaccines to actually prevent transmission for viruses. This is why quite a few vets were extremely cautious about the covid vaccine. I think we got lucky that it didn't turn into a marek situation with covid. And it still could.
RetpolineDrama 4y ago
>Leaky vaccines are a serious problem but only a small group of vaccines fit that definition and, so far, that's the only real example of it happening in animals at scale. One problem is that BigPharmaCo has an extreme financial incentive to induce this scenario. They could turn every person on earth into a lifelong subscriber.
oldgradstudent 4y ago
> Leaky vaccines are a serious problem but only a small group of vaccines fit that definition and, so far, that's the only real example of it happening in animals at scale There is some evidence that one of the most common childhood vaccines, the acellular pertussis vaccine, may be in this category. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1314688110 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1314688110

hellothere1337 4y ago

this seems great for vaccine producers though, you just create an arms race which means infinite revenue

tptacek 4y ago

That would be fitting, because, at least in North America, neither has any meaningful ecological role outside of being livestock. If anything, it's ecologically problematic to make honeybees even more competitive against native pollinators. Let the Paenibacillus do its work!

mrguyorama 4y ago
What natural pollinators exist in north america and are they adapted enough to an agriculture based society that they will meet our pollinating needs? If you have a cheap, easy solution to pollination in america for various industrialized crops, you can go make bank right now.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Of course not. Agriculture in the US is an industrial process, not an ecological one. Nature doesn't want California to be producing all these almonds, but that's what the bees are there to help happen.