6 ms·

Could covid be the last straw to the NHS that A&E can't serve patients in a timely manner? I have experience the 48 minutes ambulance wait second hand. A frien

by a_c 4y ago

Could covid be the last straw to the NHS that A&E can't serve patients in a timely manner? I have experience the 48 minutes ambulance wait second hand. A friend of mine was having heartache and called ambulance. He was told to wait for 45 minutes. His wife insisted to drive him straight to A&E instead. The moment he steps out of his car he crashed. That's was about 20 minutes after the emergency call. Had he waited longer he would be gone. On another occasion, I had simultaneously received a letter from NHS, telling me to return for minor operation, and a phone call from doctor, telling me no further follow up needed. I can't reach the doctor through phone call so I go for the consultation anyway. Turns out the hospital did schedule an appointment for me, a different doctor did prepare to perform a biopsy on me, upon further clarification, the doctors did discharge me. I wonder how much is it due to the system being overwhelmed, how much is just normal error.

badcppdev 4y ago
My 2 penny opinion on this debate is people should always refer to the UK government rather than the "NHS". The NHS is just a government department run by the health minister. Saying the NHS is in trouble means you're not pointing your finger at the people responsible. (Your opinion on this is very welcome)
- hanoz 4y ago
  That's only the case for the NHS in England.
  - badcppdev 4y ago
    Are you talking about how NHS Scotland is run by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing based out of Holyrood? Please tell me you're not. It's not really very relevant to the discussion. My point was that it's the government running the health service. Name and shame the person responsible.
    - hanoz 4y ago
      I wasn't particularly thinking of Scotland, but since you mention it: "The NHS in Scotland is totally devolved to the Scottish Parliament and all policy and spending decisions are made in Scotland." https://www.gov.uk/government/news/facts-about-nhs-funding-in-scotland https://www.gov.uk/government/news/facts-about-nhs-funding-i...
      - virtual_void 4y ago
        The funding is given to them by the uk gov. They are allowed to elect how they spend it. If the funding is insufficient then it’s not really fixing the problem.
        hanoz 4y ago
        They have tax raising powers to fund it however they so wish.
        virtual_void 4y ago
        Is that true? I thought they could only devote devolved public expenditure to the nhs. Even if they could raise income tax (3p i think?) to fund extra in the nhs that’s a drastically unlikely scenario. Ultimately i think the nhs is Scotland is likely to be as underfunded as the nhs in England.
- afandian 4y ago
  It’s also a proxy to let Conservative voters, who have kept this government in power for a decade, off the hook. This didn’t happen by accident. IMO voters should be able to hold each other for their choices.
noelwelsh 4y ago
Covid has exacerbated the issues caused by the Conservative government's 12 year underinvestment in the NHS. They have spent about 30 billion less than is needed, according to the figures I've seen. Example: https://nhsfunding.info/underfunded/is-the-nhs-underfunded/ https://nhsfunding.info/underfunded/is-the-nhs-underfunded/
- digianarchist 4y ago
  They need to spin out how the NHS funds itself into an independent body like the BBC Trust (BBC Board these days). The NHS should be able to set a budget and levy taxes accordingly in order to meet some key targets it sets itself. The union should be part of this too. These taxes should show up as a health levy on people's paycheques like they do in British Columbia. This body should be responsible for education, recruiting and staffing be it via universities or immigration.
  - danw1979 4y ago
    This is a great idea, so long as the same body has the power to decide how the NHS is structured and managed too, free from central government interference. Accountability seems totally absent anyway, so let them just get on with it. The Conservative government are deliberately running it into the ground and only true independence in terms of funding and management would be enough to isolate it from further sabotage.
    - digianarchist 4y ago
      > This is a great idea, so long as the same body has the power to decide how the NHS is structured and managed too, free from central government interference. That's the idea. Not sure how the the board would be chosen mind, elections along the lines of PFCC? If ministers were involved it would probably devolve into the status-quo.
quesomaster9000 4y ago
A personal anecdote: had been feeling very unwell all morning with back pain but needed some fresh air so went for a walk, on the way back my chest tightened to the point where it felt like a very heavy person was sitting on my chest and was having stabbing pains. I'd never experienced anything like this before. My local GP was near by so I went there first, described what was happening to the receptionist... they said 'Call 111' (NHS non-emergency triage, for non-Brits) and shoo'd me off; I loitered around and Googled symptoms and yea... 'possible heart attack, go to A&E NOW' was the general gist. Called 111 from within view of the receptionist in case I collapsed, 15 minutes later I'm still on hold - I figured all they'd do would put me through to 999 after spending 10 mins asking questions. Got an Uber to A&E, and had an EKG within about 20 minutes of arriving. They said it's not a heart attack, probably isn't myocarditis or pericarditis, then the weird question 'do you suffer from anxiety or any mental health problems?'... I'm 100% sure it wasn't psychosomatic or an anxiety attack. But that was the point where their concern ended and I was discharged with no follow up from GP or any idea of what had happened. Turns out, it was acute pancreatitis caused by a gall stone - I had to pay privately to find that out because repeated GP appointments they couldn't care less. Either way, it's an absolute clusterfuck, and this same pattern of systemic dysfunction has been repeated with pretty much every interaction I've had with NHS funded services (both hospitals and GPs), and I'm fairly sure - like in a_c's friends case - if it had've been a heart attack it would've required me to drop dead in the GPs reception for them to do anything more than just pass the buck.
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  The UK is down with leading countries like Colombia in the doctors-per-capita rankings. The NHS could be a lot better, and most doctors want it to be a lot better. If there aren't enough doctors to provide an adequate service - and there really aren't - it's not the front line staff who are to blame.
  - rcarr 4y ago
    Is it not the same doctors that vote to cap the amount of doctors places in higher education in order to protect wages? Why are we not training as many doctors who meet the educational requirements as possible? Every year come A Level results there’s a kid in the paper with AAA grades who can’t get into medical school. It’s a disgrace.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
See the recent graphs by the FInancial Times data journalists that show this is an inevitable, and indeed, planned for, outcome of Tory policy. Twitter summary from the journalist: https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1606223922474627073 https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1606223922474627073
dv_dt 4y ago
It’s not really Covid or shifts in behavior, it’s a policy decision by political Tory leadership of how much margin in the system of the NHS to maintain. And imho in their case their policy is negative margin in order to increase privatization of healthcare in the UK.

by a_c 4y ago

badcppdev 4y ago

My 2 penny opinion on this debate is people should always refer to the UK government rather than the "NHS". The NHS is just a government department run by the health minister. Saying the NHS is in trouble means you're not pointing your finger at the people responsible. (Your opinion on this is very welcome)

hanoz 4y ago
That's only the case for the NHS in England.
- badcppdev 4y ago
  Are you talking about how NHS Scotland is run by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing based out of Holyrood? Please tell me you're not. It's not really very relevant to the discussion. My point was that it's the government running the health service. Name and shame the person responsible.
  - hanoz 4y ago
    I wasn't particularly thinking of Scotland, but since you mention it: "The NHS in Scotland is totally devolved to the Scottish Parliament and all policy and spending decisions are made in Scotland." https://www.gov.uk/government/news/facts-about-nhs-funding-in-scotland https://www.gov.uk/government/news/facts-about-nhs-funding-i...
    - virtual_void 4y ago
      The funding is given to them by the uk gov. They are allowed to elect how they spend it. If the funding is insufficient then it’s not really fixing the problem.
      - hanoz 4y ago
        They have tax raising powers to fund it however they so wish.
        virtual_void 4y ago
        Is that true? I thought they could only devote devolved public expenditure to the nhs. Even if they could raise income tax (3p i think?) to fund extra in the nhs that’s a drastically unlikely scenario. Ultimately i think the nhs is Scotland is likely to be as underfunded as the nhs in England.
afandian 4y ago
It’s also a proxy to let Conservative voters, who have kept this government in power for a decade, off the hook. This didn’t happen by accident. IMO voters should be able to hold each other for their choices.

noelwelsh 4y ago

Covid has exacerbated the issues caused by the Conservative government's 12 year underinvestment in the NHS. They have spent about 30 billion less than is needed, according to the figures I've seen. Example: https://nhsfunding.info/underfunded/is-the-nhs-underfunded/ https://nhsfunding.info/underfunded/is-the-nhs-underfunded/

digianarchist 4y ago
They need to spin out how the NHS funds itself into an independent body like the BBC Trust (BBC Board these days). The NHS should be able to set a budget and levy taxes accordingly in order to meet some key targets it sets itself. The union should be part of this too. These taxes should show up as a health levy on people's paycheques like they do in British Columbia. This body should be responsible for education, recruiting and staffing be it via universities or immigration.
- danw1979 4y ago
  This is a great idea, so long as the same body has the power to decide how the NHS is structured and managed too, free from central government interference. Accountability seems totally absent anyway, so let them just get on with it. The Conservative government are deliberately running it into the ground and only true independence in terms of funding and management would be enough to isolate it from further sabotage.
  - digianarchist 4y ago
    > This is a great idea, so long as the same body has the power to decide how the NHS is structured and managed too, free from central government interference. That's the idea. Not sure how the the board would be chosen mind, elections along the lines of PFCC? If ministers were involved it would probably devolve into the status-quo.

quesomaster9000 4y ago

A personal anecdote: had been feeling very unwell all morning with back pain but needed some fresh air so went for a walk, on the way back my chest tightened to the point where it felt like a very heavy person was sitting on my chest and was having stabbing pains. I'd never experienced anything like this before. My local GP was near by so I went there first, described what was happening to the receptionist... they said 'Call 111' (NHS non-emergency triage, for non-Brits) and shoo'd me off; I loitered around and Googled symptoms and yea... 'possible heart attack, go to A&E NOW' was the general gist. Called 111 from within view of the receptionist in case I collapsed, 15 minutes later I'm still on hold - I figured all they'd do would put me through to 999 after spending 10 mins asking questions. Got an Uber to A&E, and had an EKG within about 20 minutes of arriving. They said it's not a heart attack, probably isn't myocarditis or pericarditis, then the weird question 'do you suffer from anxiety or any mental health problems?'... I'm 100% sure it wasn't psychosomatic or an anxiety attack. But that was the point where their concern ended and I was discharged with no follow up from GP or any idea of what had happened. Turns out, it was acute pancreatitis caused by a gall stone - I had to pay privately to find that out because repeated GP appointments they couldn't care less. Either way, it's an absolute clusterfuck, and this same pattern of systemic dysfunction has been repeated with pretty much every interaction I've had with NHS funded services (both hospitals and GPs), and I'm fairly sure - like in a_c's friends case - if it had've been a heart attack it would've required me to drop dead in the GPs reception for them to do anything more than just pass the buck.

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
The UK is down with leading countries like Colombia in the doctors-per-capita rankings. The NHS could be a lot better, and most doctors want it to be a lot better. If there aren't enough doctors to provide an adequate service - and there really aren't - it's not the front line staff who are to blame.
- rcarr 4y ago
  Is it not the same doctors that vote to cap the amount of doctors places in higher education in order to protect wages? Why are we not training as many doctors who meet the educational requirements as possible? Every year come A Level results there’s a kid in the paper with AAA grades who can’t get into medical school. It’s a disgrace.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

See the recent graphs by the FInancial Times data journalists that show this is an inevitable, and indeed, planned for, outcome of Tory policy. Twitter summary from the journalist: https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1606223922474627073 https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1606223922474627073

dv_dt 4y ago

It’s not really Covid or shifts in behavior, it’s a policy decision by political Tory leadership of how much margin in the system of the NHS to maintain. And imho in their case their policy is negative margin in order to increase privatization of healthcare in the UK.