4 ms·

I just shared it here because it because it is a good excerpt from one of his most important essays and the editor gave it the fantastic (and nowadays clickbait

I just shared it here because it because it is a good excerpt from one of his most important essays and the editor gave it the fantastic (and nowadays clickbait-y) title of 'Human and Divine Nomenclature'. I was just flipping through this volume because I found it referenced on de Maistre's wiki page, and figured I would share it somewhere (I don't use any conventional social media). To the issue of American "civic" nationalism: I must say I have always been perplexed by the phenomenon, but it is perhaps most unsurprising to witness among Mormons. Quite like the framing of the Constitution, the LDS is undoubtedly freemasonic in its origins, and many Mormons are themselves heritage Americans. There's also that whole BYU-CIA recruitment thing.

082349872349872 4y ago
I went on to try "War, Peace, and Social Order", and was reminded of the Verhoeven version of Starship Troopers. And as to the necessity of serfdom in Russia; with hindsight I know it only lasted a couple of decades past Мёртвые души... Are there other parts of the essay I should try reading?
- Connor_Creegan 4y ago
  [dead]
  - aebtebeten 4y ago
    Thanks very much for the comparative pair; le français, ça joue so I think I'll try https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k57137914/f22.item.r=Essai%20sur%20le%20principe%20générateur%20des%20constitutions%20politiques https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k57137914/f22.item.r=E... first. (in the english context, I think both William and Henry might contest the "without violence on the one part"?) Looking through a mod/trad prism, there probably is little to justify the separation. I think it was Simone Weil who pointed out that in germany, finding the fascists and the communists working together on occasion against the establishment was not necessarily as surprising as it might seem to intellectuals, for both thought they were thoroughly modern, "on the right side of history" as it were, and on this point they differed only in each thinking their own side would be the one to ultimately replace the "traditional" (in their eyes) globalist capitalist world. [Edit: Looking at Proverbs 8, I would say the me in "By me kings reign" is wisdom, as distinct from the all-powerful]
    - Connor_Creegan 4y ago
      >in the english context... Not a bad source of counter-argumentation. >Looking through a mod/trad prism... Perhaps I should clarify my use of the dimension of "modern"/"traditional" - my intention was not that politics ought to be understood through the lens of those who are against and in favor of the present establishment. It is instead an epistemological distinction: do the certainties which motivate my actions originate in my immediate sensibility and in abstract arguments, or in relationships and in the thoroughly-mediated historicity of my surroundings? What is intended in my use of "modern" is closer to the original sense of "modo" - "at-present", etc. The same goes for my use of "traditional" - I don't mean "old" or "established" as much as I mean "transmitted" or "perennial". The contest between liberalism, communism, and the axis ideologies that culminated in the second World War was one between different versions of modernism, and different visions of a post-war world. You are definitely correct in your observation about the collaboration between NatSocs and communists, though I'm not sure they would have regarded the forces of international capital as "traditional". Status quo certainly, but I imagine, since their thinking was deeply-infected by the ideas of Rousseau and Hobbes (and Marx of course), that they, like most traditionalists, would at least assent to the proposition that capitalism is more fat than meat as far as the transmission of intergenerational wisdom goes. The reasons for doing so might differ among all parties involved, but their is at least an assent to the proposition taken at face value.
      - 082349872349872 4y ago
        So as a Ship-of-Theseus question: how traditional is the (post Vatican II) Church? If I am understanding de Maistre correctly, he would consider Francis to be part of tradition, for that is the whole point of not being bound to ink (as the protestants err) ... and this despite the fact that the catechism resembles nothing so much to an outsider as a Napoleonic-style civil code*: eg, https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8M.HTM https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8M.HTM (otoh, I doubt de Maistre would approve of the 15 commandments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXeTsWGPT0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXeTsWGPT0w ) * but how long has the catechism been presented in this form? does the resemblance go in the opposite direction? I've had experience with both azure and salmon legal systems: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Map_of_the_Legal_systems_of_the_world_%28en%29.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Map_of_t... and IMX the azure have been equally just, while being both faster and cheaper than, the salmon.

082349872349872 4y ago

I went on to try "War, Peace, and Social Order", and was reminded of the Verhoeven version of Starship Troopers. And as to the necessity of serfdom in Russia; with hindsight I know it only lasted a couple of decades past Мёртвые души... Are there other parts of the essay I should try reading?

Connor_Creegan 4y ago
[dead]
- aebtebeten 4y ago
  Thanks very much for the comparative pair; le français, ça joue so I think I'll try https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k57137914/f22.item.r=Essai%20sur%20le%20principe%20générateur%20des%20constitutions%20politiques https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k57137914/f22.item.r=E... first. (in the english context, I think both William and Henry might contest the "without violence on the one part"?) Looking through a mod/trad prism, there probably is little to justify the separation. I think it was Simone Weil who pointed out that in germany, finding the fascists and the communists working together on occasion against the establishment was not necessarily as surprising as it might seem to intellectuals, for both thought they were thoroughly modern, "on the right side of history" as it were, and on this point they differed only in each thinking their own side would be the one to ultimately replace the "traditional" (in their eyes) globalist capitalist world. [Edit: Looking at Proverbs 8, I would say the me in "By me kings reign" is wisdom, as distinct from the all-powerful]
  - Connor_Creegan 4y ago
    >in the english context... Not a bad source of counter-argumentation. >Looking through a mod/trad prism... Perhaps I should clarify my use of the dimension of "modern"/"traditional" - my intention was not that politics ought to be understood through the lens of those who are against and in favor of the present establishment. It is instead an epistemological distinction: do the certainties which motivate my actions originate in my immediate sensibility and in abstract arguments, or in relationships and in the thoroughly-mediated historicity of my surroundings? What is intended in my use of "modern" is closer to the original sense of "modo" - "at-present", etc. The same goes for my use of "traditional" - I don't mean "old" or "established" as much as I mean "transmitted" or "perennial". The contest between liberalism, communism, and the axis ideologies that culminated in the second World War was one between different versions of modernism, and different visions of a post-war world. You are definitely correct in your observation about the collaboration between NatSocs and communists, though I'm not sure they would have regarded the forces of international capital as "traditional". Status quo certainly, but I imagine, since their thinking was deeply-infected by the ideas of Rousseau and Hobbes (and Marx of course), that they, like most traditionalists, would at least assent to the proposition that capitalism is more fat than meat as far as the transmission of intergenerational wisdom goes. The reasons for doing so might differ among all parties involved, but their is at least an assent to the proposition taken at face value.
    - 082349872349872 4y ago
      So as a Ship-of-Theseus question: how traditional is the (post Vatican II) Church? If I am understanding de Maistre correctly, he would consider Francis to be part of tradition, for that is the whole point of not being bound to ink (as the protestants err) ... and this despite the fact that the catechism resembles nothing so much to an outsider as a Napoleonic-style civil code*: eg, https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8M.HTM https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8M.HTM (otoh, I doubt de Maistre would approve of the 15 commandments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXeTsWGPT0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXeTsWGPT0w ) * but how long has the catechism been presented in this form? does the resemblance go in the opposite direction? I've had experience with both azure and salmon legal systems: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Map_of_the_Legal_systems_of_the_world_%28en%29.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Map_of_t... and IMX the azure have been equally just, while being both faster and cheaper than, the salmon.