4 ms·

Why has no one published a computer version of Squad Leader?

57 points by luu 4y ago

Apocryphon 4y ago
Presumably Paradox is working on it, if they own the rights.
- cwmma 4y ago
  from the article, they bought it along with diplomacy as a package, and then diplomacy tanked so there is no reason to suspect they are actively working on it.
sornaensis 4y ago
Because Combat Mission is an actual video game analogue of Squad Leader/Advanced Squad Leader instead of a video game version of pushing chits around and rolling dice. Also, there are several clones of ASL that are published by various wargaming publishers such as Slitherine: Lock'n'Load Tactical, etc.
- liotier 4y ago
  And Atomic Games' Close Combat before that, originally announced as Beyond Squad Leader, meant to be a digital sequel of Avalon Hill’s Advanced Squad Leader (ASL) board war game franchise. However the relationship failed Atomic and Avalon Hill parted ways. Atomic renamed the project Close Combat, and continued development and released in 1996. Source: https://nodicenoglory.com/2021/03/08/25-year-retrospective-of-the-close-combat-series-part-one/ https://nodicenoglory.com/2021/03/08/25-year-retrospective-o... To me, Combat Mission was the 3D successor to 2D Close Combat - so a direct line of inheritance from ASL. Bonus - a 1999 interview of Keith Zabalaoui: http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12249 http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums... - players will vaguely remember that "Zabalaoui" name, because the names of the soldiers in the game were those of the developers !
  - AndyMcConachie 4y ago
    I played a ton of ASL when I was a kid. And I loved Microsoft Close Combat. To me, they haven't been replaced by anything remotely similar. I just had a look at Combat Mission and it's not the same. I don't want crappy polygons in the shape of tanks and people. I want an overhead map, with maybe hexes, but some kind of overhead map. From what I can tell Combat Mission looks nothing like the glory of hexagonal combat I had with Avalon Hill games as a kid. I could play via Vassal or some other game engine, but the nice part about having it in a video game is I don't have to know all the rules. And I can play against AIs. Even if the AIs are crappy they let you practice. So personally I would love a video game version of ASL. I still have fond memories of Close Combat and would love a game like that again.
    - intelVISA 4y ago
      Yeah CM isn't quite there - surprsied nobody has made anything similar as to my knowledge it's pretty uncontested in its little niche.
    - liotier 4y ago
      For all its limitations, Close Combat hit a sweet spot of cartoonish realism that made it immersive and fun. Combat mission is a much better simulation, but less joyful. As for hexagons, my cup of tea was The Operational Art of War - hexagons a couple kilometers wide was plenty enough details and getting down in the weeds with Advanced Squad Leader felt like too much tedium to me... So I'm not a good appreciator of ASL's fine qualities !
    - sornaensis 4y ago
      Combat Mission is generally meant to be played turn-based, and commands given to squads are issued on a grid. You can watch the entire action unfold in replay while determining your next move, so you don’t miss anything. It’s almost identical in concept, and the simulation is much much deeper than it appears. I recommend trying a demo instead of judging by looks, it is not at all a pretty game but it’s got a lot going on.
    - livrem 4y ago
bagrow 4y ago
Does user-generated content count? https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=702134282 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=70213...
mcv 4y ago
As much as I like Squad Leader, does it make sense to make a computer version? If you want to play online, you can already use VASL. On the other hand, there have been very successful computer games inspired by board wargames, most notably probably Panzer General (and its successor Panzer Corps). If I could play ASL like that, I'd definitely buy it.
DivisionSol 4y ago
Make a clone with look-alike rules. Of course you'll need new maps, unit tokens, and scenarios custom to your clone. I know it is easier said than done, but, rightsholders sit on obscure IP like a dragon on a hoard. If they DID make a new game based on this Squad Leader game, it probably wouldn't be the same game. Quick edit from reading another post: If one just wants to play VASL looks like what one would want. Reimplementation of the rules in another engine, boom.
- livrem 4y ago
  The article mentions a game that looks a lot like a digital clone of ASL to me: https://www.matrixgames.com/game/tigers-on-the-hunt https://www.matrixgames.com/game/tigers-on-the-hunt
oldjim69 4y ago
I think the main reason is that VASSAL-VASL (https://vasl.info/ https://vasl.info/) has 90% of the features of a video game and is free. It has all the counters, maps, charts and guides -all that is missing is the rules and the scenario cards. MMP sells a searchable pdf version of the rules for cheap online and the vast majority of players are happy to share scenario cards if their opponent doesn't have it.
miiiiiike 4y ago
The ASL community is way too small for a profitable port. Look at the recent GMT ports from Playdeck and others (Labyrinth, Fort Sumter, Twilight Struggle, the Commands & Colors ports) did any of them make their budgets back? I'd rather play most of these through VASSAL. You get take backs, plus if you mess up the rules it's your fault, not some anonymous coder who doesn't know the rules either. I've been playing digital Blood Bowl recently and it really feels terrible compared to playing it on the tabletop or through VASSAL. A 1 in 6 chance your guy falls over while rushing is punishing. But, when you get to roll the dice yourself, even a failure is a moment of tension that ends with in story beat.
tra3 4y ago
What's the age range for the table top version? I see a million versions for the table top version on amazon, any suggestions on one to buy? My son loves war games, would love to try to pull him away from screens and play something like this with him.
- whartung 4y ago
  Well, I was playing wargames around 14 years old. Squad Leader (the original Squad Leader, vs modern Advanced Squad Leader (ASL)), Star Fleet Battles, Russian Campaign, Luftwaffe. Mind, that's when I was introduced to them, so I probably could have played them earlier. I do recall my brother having the game Kingmaker from Avalon Hill, but we never played it. I should also note that we played these games, but I can't say we played them well. The original Squad Leader was notable for having a rich system, but a progressive path to learning through several scenarios that added on more and more of the rules as you proceeded through the scenarios. ASL is much more complicated than that. But I will also say that the benefit of tactical systems, vs larger strategic games, is that you CAN just learn a little bit of the game. Specifically, you only need to understand the basic mechanics (and for many, the fundamental mechanics are usually pretty basic), and then only the systems you'll be using in a particular scenario. For example, if you're just using squads of men, you don't need to understand all of the armor rules. Another example is Star Fleet Battles (not known by anyone as an "easy" game). SFB has over a dozen different fleets and powers in the game (Federation, Klingon, Romulan, etc.) with different ships and weapon systems. But if you're just playing with Feds and Klingons, half the rule book vanishes as you don't need to know about the vast array of systems and interactions. ASL is a complex game, to be sure. But a lot of the complexity is in how it represents the capabilities of the different powers and their orders of battle. But, to be fair, it would take a fairly experienced player to whittle down the essentials necessary for basic play. But you could learn the basics in a 1/2 hour. However, table top wargaming is VAST in the eras they represent, the battles, the scenarios and conflicts. There's some core mechanics that many games share (movement points, zones of control, odds based combat tables, etc.). Learn those once, and it can carry across a wide variety of games. Some publisher do use a core ruleset even for diverse eras that you can learn once and just focus on the special rules for the games or scenarios. There are certainly games for novice and young players with simple mechanics that could work, I'm just not the person to recommend them, as I'm particularly out of touch with modern gaming. I'm sure someone on Boardgame Geek could offer modern suggestions. Games like Ogre do come to mind, the original "Microgame". There's also a large array of games borderline toys that use fantastic miniatures. I'm an old school grognard. I like pushing square chits around hex grids vs dropping $$$ on, mind, very nice, miniatures and such for a game. But I can step out and look at someone coming up to a pair of people, staring at blue, plain hexagon map, with a couple of 1/2" counters on it, a few pairs of dice, tables and sheets of paper, and yelling at each other, passionately, over a rules, uh, "discussion" and wonder what the big deal is. At a glance, it certainly isn't necessarily compelling.
shakow 4y ago
Because we now have better things, leveraging the power of modern computers? Mius Front, Armored Brigade, Command Ops, Flashpoint Campaigns, Close Combat, ...
- pugworthy 4y ago
  ...and a million versions of solitaire card game for phones...
tom-thistime 4y ago
The Guards Counterattack, yay! I'd buy a decent computer version of the basic game whether I was ever going to play it or not. Digital ASL? I'm out. Too hardcore. It's an insanely complicated game. Has anyone ever really played it by the actual written rules?
jenkstom 4y ago
This article is paywalled and there is no way to read it without paying.
- hermitcrab 4y ago
  I didn't see a paywall. I'm in the UK.
cenazoic 4y ago
I randomly started playing/learning ASL at the beginning of the pandemic. Randomly because I’d always disliked hex and counter games; they looked dreadfully boring, couldn’t compete with the latest Kickstarted razzmatazz, and also, only old dudes seemed to play it. Still, somehow.. I bought Starter Kit #1, found an opponent/teacher on Vassal, and was hooked. I finally grokked the idea that beyond all the WWII chrome, this was essentially a puzzle game, which I loved. I have a PS5 and XBoxX. I don’t want to play ASL on a console, or a computer (although technically I do when on Vassal). There’s something about the head to head play, the tactile natire of the counters, the maps, etc, that’s part of why I enjoy it. Sure, would a computer version enable things like not needing a 3-ring binder of rules (and supplements), endless cases of counters (storage is a well-known sub-hobby for many)…of course! An AI opponent for solitaire play? Yes! Would it be the same? No. Part of the ‘skill’ of a given player is just on how well they know the rules, and extremely good ones figure out clever exploits, just like programmers. It takes some doing - as others have mentioned, there’s a lot of rules, they’ve had decades to refine, clarify, specify them; they are mind-bogglingly comprehensive. The other thing I’ve noticed is that ASL players tend to be collectors. They like the boxes of stuff, the thousands of official, 3rd-party, and home brewed scenarios, the maps covered in tilting piles of cardboard chits. The aforementioned futzing about with storage solutions, and developing opinions on such things as corner-clipping and map-laminating. They attend tournaments to make new friends and see old ones, and to luxuriate in the time spent fighting these paper wars. How would a computer version improve on any of that?

57 points by luu 4y ago

Apocryphon 4y ago

Presumably Paradox is working on it, if they own the rights.

cwmma 4y ago
from the article, they bought it along with diplomacy as a package, and then diplomacy tanked so there is no reason to suspect they are actively working on it.

sornaensis 4y ago

Because Combat Mission is an actual video game analogue of Squad Leader/Advanced Squad Leader instead of a video game version of pushing chits around and rolling dice. Also, there are several clones of ASL that are published by various wargaming publishers such as Slitherine: Lock'n'Load Tactical, etc.

liotier 4y ago
And Atomic Games' Close Combat before that, originally announced as Beyond Squad Leader, meant to be a digital sequel of Avalon Hill’s Advanced Squad Leader (ASL) board war game franchise. However the relationship failed Atomic and Avalon Hill parted ways. Atomic renamed the project Close Combat, and continued development and released in 1996. Source: https://nodicenoglory.com/2021/03/08/25-year-retrospective-of-the-close-combat-series-part-one/ https://nodicenoglory.com/2021/03/08/25-year-retrospective-o... To me, Combat Mission was the 3D successor to 2D Close Combat - so a direct line of inheritance from ASL. Bonus - a 1999 interview of Keith Zabalaoui: http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12249 http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums... - players will vaguely remember that "Zabalaoui" name, because the names of the soldiers in the game were those of the developers !
- AndyMcConachie 4y ago
  I played a ton of ASL when I was a kid. And I loved Microsoft Close Combat. To me, they haven't been replaced by anything remotely similar. I just had a look at Combat Mission and it's not the same. I don't want crappy polygons in the shape of tanks and people. I want an overhead map, with maybe hexes, but some kind of overhead map. From what I can tell Combat Mission looks nothing like the glory of hexagonal combat I had with Avalon Hill games as a kid. I could play via Vassal or some other game engine, but the nice part about having it in a video game is I don't have to know all the rules. And I can play against AIs. Even if the AIs are crappy they let you practice. So personally I would love a video game version of ASL. I still have fond memories of Close Combat and would love a game like that again.
  - intelVISA 4y ago
    Yeah CM isn't quite there - surprsied nobody has made anything similar as to my knowledge it's pretty uncontested in its little niche.
  - liotier 4y ago
    For all its limitations, Close Combat hit a sweet spot of cartoonish realism that made it immersive and fun. Combat mission is a much better simulation, but less joyful. As for hexagons, my cup of tea was The Operational Art of War - hexagons a couple kilometers wide was plenty enough details and getting down in the weeds with Advanced Squad Leader felt like too much tedium to me... So I'm not a good appreciator of ASL's fine qualities !
  - sornaensis 4y ago
    Combat Mission is generally meant to be played turn-based, and commands given to squads are issued on a grid. You can watch the entire action unfold in replay while determining your next move, so you don’t miss anything. It’s almost identical in concept, and the simulation is much much deeper than it appears. I recommend trying a demo instead of judging by looks, it is not at all a pretty game but it’s got a lot going on.
  - livrem 4y ago

bagrow 4y ago

Does user-generated content count? https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=702134282 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=70213...

mcv 4y ago

As much as I like Squad Leader, does it make sense to make a computer version? If you want to play online, you can already use VASL. On the other hand, there have been very successful computer games inspired by board wargames, most notably probably Panzer General (and its successor Panzer Corps). If I could play ASL like that, I'd definitely buy it.

DivisionSol 4y ago

Make a clone with look-alike rules. Of course you'll need new maps, unit tokens, and scenarios custom to your clone. I know it is easier said than done, but, rightsholders sit on obscure IP like a dragon on a hoard. If they DID make a new game based on this Squad Leader game, it probably wouldn't be the same game. Quick edit from reading another post: If one just wants to play VASL looks like what one would want. Reimplementation of the rules in another engine, boom.

livrem 4y ago
The article mentions a game that looks a lot like a digital clone of ASL to me: https://www.matrixgames.com/game/tigers-on-the-hunt https://www.matrixgames.com/game/tigers-on-the-hunt

oldjim69 4y ago

I think the main reason is that VASSAL-VASL (https://vasl.info/ https://vasl.info/) has 90% of the features of a video game and is free. It has all the counters, maps, charts and guides -all that is missing is the rules and the scenario cards. MMP sells a searchable pdf version of the rules for cheap online and the vast majority of players are happy to share scenario cards if their opponent doesn't have it.

miiiiiike 4y ago

The ASL community is way too small for a profitable port. Look at the recent GMT ports from Playdeck and others (Labyrinth, Fort Sumter, Twilight Struggle, the Commands & Colors ports) did any of them make their budgets back? I'd rather play most of these through VASSAL. You get take backs, plus if you mess up the rules it's your fault, not some anonymous coder who doesn't know the rules either. I've been playing digital Blood Bowl recently and it really feels terrible compared to playing it on the tabletop or through VASSAL. A 1 in 6 chance your guy falls over while rushing is punishing. But, when you get to roll the dice yourself, even a failure is a moment of tension that ends with in story beat.

tra3 4y ago

What's the age range for the table top version? I see a million versions for the table top version on amazon, any suggestions on one to buy? My son loves war games, would love to try to pull him away from screens and play something like this with him.

whartung 4y ago
Well, I was playing wargames around 14 years old. Squad Leader (the original Squad Leader, vs modern Advanced Squad Leader (ASL)), Star Fleet Battles, Russian Campaign, Luftwaffe. Mind, that's when I was introduced to them, so I probably could have played them earlier. I do recall my brother having the game Kingmaker from Avalon Hill, but we never played it. I should also note that we played these games, but I can't say we played them well. The original Squad Leader was notable for having a rich system, but a progressive path to learning through several scenarios that added on more and more of the rules as you proceeded through the scenarios. ASL is much more complicated than that. But I will also say that the benefit of tactical systems, vs larger strategic games, is that you CAN just learn a little bit of the game. Specifically, you only need to understand the basic mechanics (and for many, the fundamental mechanics are usually pretty basic), and then only the systems you'll be using in a particular scenario. For example, if you're just using squads of men, you don't need to understand all of the armor rules. Another example is Star Fleet Battles (not known by anyone as an "easy" game). SFB has over a dozen different fleets and powers in the game (Federation, Klingon, Romulan, etc.) with different ships and weapon systems. But if you're just playing with Feds and Klingons, half the rule book vanishes as you don't need to know about the vast array of systems and interactions. ASL is a complex game, to be sure. But a lot of the complexity is in how it represents the capabilities of the different powers and their orders of battle. But, to be fair, it would take a fairly experienced player to whittle down the essentials necessary for basic play. But you could learn the basics in a 1/2 hour. However, table top wargaming is VAST in the eras they represent, the battles, the scenarios and conflicts. There's some core mechanics that many games share (movement points, zones of control, odds based combat tables, etc.). Learn those once, and it can carry across a wide variety of games. Some publisher do use a core ruleset even for diverse eras that you can learn once and just focus on the special rules for the games or scenarios. There are certainly games for novice and young players with simple mechanics that could work, I'm just not the person to recommend them, as I'm particularly out of touch with modern gaming. I'm sure someone on Boardgame Geek could offer modern suggestions. Games like Ogre do come to mind, the original "Microgame". There's also a large array of games borderline toys that use fantastic miniatures. I'm an old school grognard. I like pushing square chits around hex grids vs dropping $$$ on, mind, very nice, miniatures and such for a game. But I can step out and look at someone coming up to a pair of people, staring at blue, plain hexagon map, with a couple of 1/2" counters on it, a few pairs of dice, tables and sheets of paper, and yelling at each other, passionately, over a rules, uh, "discussion" and wonder what the big deal is. At a glance, it certainly isn't necessarily compelling.

shakow 4y ago

Because we now have better things, leveraging the power of modern computers? Mius Front, Armored Brigade, Command Ops, Flashpoint Campaigns, Close Combat, ...

pugworthy 4y ago
...and a million versions of solitaire card game for phones...

tom-thistime 4y ago

The Guards Counterattack, yay! I'd buy a decent computer version of the basic game whether I was ever going to play it or not. Digital ASL? I'm out. Too hardcore. It's an insanely complicated game. Has anyone ever really played it by the actual written rules?

jenkstom 4y ago

This article is paywalled and there is no way to read it without paying.

hermitcrab 4y ago
I didn't see a paywall. I'm in the UK.

cenazoic 4y ago

I randomly started playing/learning ASL at the beginning of the pandemic. Randomly because I’d always disliked hex and counter games; they looked dreadfully boring, couldn’t compete with the latest Kickstarted razzmatazz, and also, only old dudes seemed to play it. Still, somehow.. I bought Starter Kit #1, found an opponent/teacher on Vassal, and was hooked. I finally grokked the idea that beyond all the WWII chrome, this was essentially a puzzle game, which I loved. I have a PS5 and XBoxX. I don’t want to play ASL on a console, or a computer (although technically I do when on Vassal). There’s something about the head to head play, the tactile natire of the counters, the maps, etc, that’s part of why I enjoy it. Sure, would a computer version enable things like not needing a 3-ring binder of rules (and supplements), endless cases of counters (storage is a well-known sub-hobby for many)…of course! An AI opponent for solitaire play? Yes! Would it be the same? No. Part of the ‘skill’ of a given player is just on how well they know the rules, and extremely good ones figure out clever exploits, just like programmers. It takes some doing - as others have mentioned, there’s a lot of rules, they’ve had decades to refine, clarify, specify them; they are mind-bogglingly comprehensive. The other thing I’ve noticed is that ASL players tend to be collectors. They like the boxes of stuff, the thousands of official, 3rd-party, and home brewed scenarios, the maps covered in tilting piles of cardboard chits. The aforementioned futzing about with storage solutions, and developing opinions on such things as corner-clipping and map-laminating. They attend tournaments to make new friends and see old ones, and to luxuriate in the time spent fighting these paper wars. How would a computer version improve on any of that?