7 ms·

Interesting that they call Lajes a “military airfield”. On the Azorean island of Terceira, Lajes (TER) is a mixed use airfield that is the commercial landing st

by robga 4y ago

Interesting that they call Lajes a “military airfield”. On the Azorean island of Terceira, Lajes (TER) is a mixed use airfield that is the commercial landing strip of the island since the 1930s, as well as having a multi-national military base on the other side since the 1940s. There is a picture in the story. The NTSB report called it a military airbase, and other reports say “Military air traffic controllers guided the aircraft”. Civilian aircraft can use the military side with a permit. Plenty more info on the air field at https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Lajes_Field https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Lajes_Field Lajes’s other claim to fame is that Bush and Blair met there just days before the Iraq invasion to hammer out whatever deal they thought had to be dealt. The tale of the stricken aircraft was fascinating. I’ve always wondered, over the decades as I’ve flown slight doglegs over Earth’s oceans, if the strategy to route over remote airfields in case of emergency has ever had a “cost” estimated. How many hours and gallons of fuel has been spent for this safety blanket? The infrastructural insurance spent to prevent lives lost in air travel appears to be much higher than lives on road travel. Could it be that the insurance is for the aircraft, not the lives? Hmm. The island, and the others of the Azores, are a wonderful place to visit by the way.

midasuni 4y ago
To cross the Atlantic between NA and Europe you need to be able to travel 138 minutes from an airport, although for almost the entire area it’s 120 minutes. This is accomplished by having air strips which can take massive planes like A350s at remote places which can’t justify planes of that size normally like Newfoundland, Greenland and the Azores While these are mainly there for military and temporary emergency use, in 2001 they were used far more - with dozens of planes landing at tiny towns like Gander and St. John’s in Newfoundland, places which only really expect a single large plane to land and refuel rather than 30 with passengers to accommodate for days.
- cjrp 4y ago
  To cross the Atlantic with a twin-engined plane has that requirement (ETOPS).
  - robga 4y ago
    This was a fun rabbit hole to go down, with the ETOPS [1] hint. I enjoyed the history of ETOPS-138 [0]. ETOPS-120 leaves some small triangles of the Atlantic inaccessible, particularly if one emergency airfield is unavailable. A 15% increase to 138 minutes covers it. Anecdotally, though, my experience as a commercial passenger feels like airlines fly almost directly over pacific islands rather than within X minutes of diversion. My memory may be anchored in bygone years. [0] https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/30979/why-etops-207-minutes https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/30979/why-etops... [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS
    - squaresmile 4y ago
      gcmap can map path with etops consideration http://www.gcmap.com/mapui http://www.gcmap.com/mapui > pacific islands Depending on the jet streams, the flight can take the great circle route [0] or taking advantage of the jet stream [1] and flying more southernly [0] https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL6/history/20230108/0215Z/RJTT/KJFK https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL6/history/20230108/02... [1] https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL6/history/20230105/0215Z/RJTT/KJFK https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL6/history/20230105/02...
      - phire 4y ago
        Even then, it didn't take the actual great circle route because Russia. The Japan to Europe flights are even worse. The great circle route cuts west, straight across Russia [0]. These days, they fly east to the Bering Strait then more or less directly over the north pole [1] (though probably easier to see on great-circle: [2]) [0] http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HND-FRA http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HND-FRA [1] https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DLH717/history/20230109/0345Z/RJTT/EDDF https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DLH717/history/20230109/... [2] http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HND-NUZAN-KUTAL-FRA http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HND-NUZAN-KUTAL-FRA
        iso1631 4y ago
- t0mas88 4y ago
  The maximum time you can be away from a suitable landing spot depends on the ETOPS certification (or 60 minutes if you don't have one). The certification is specific to the type of plane and operator. A modern 777 at most airlines for example has an ETOPS rating of 180 minutes. That's 180 minutes of flying with a failed engine. So you have to take into account whether you can maintain altitude on 1 engine. Most of the time you can't, you'll be flying lower. Which means slower speed, so the calculation is 180 minutes at that speed.
- Erwin 4y ago
  Gander's role in 2001 was made into a musical, and it's quite a touching and heailng piece of entertainment if you were around back then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcI1EKE01S0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcI1EKE01S0 -- certainly best on stage if you can find it, but also available on Apple TV.
noduerme 4y ago
One of the coolest emergency airfields I can think of is, literally, Uruguay Route 9, along the coast of the country, where a 2-lane highway becomes an enormous runway that you continue driving along. I don't know if there were any famous landings there; I heard it's only used rarely by the Presidential jet. Here's where it is: https://goo.gl/maps/fpwxuPzGVDtDEKmB8 https://goo.gl/maps/fpwxuPzGVDtDEKmB8 and what it looks like when you drive on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C5LSrRkFyU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C5LSrRkFyU
- Piskvorrr 4y ago
  Not that uncommon. The Czech motorway D1 can be converted to a military airstrip here: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.3870307,15.9211894,289m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4 https://www.google.com/maps/@49.3870307,15.9211894,289m/data... See where the grass divider ends, and gets replaced by a jersey barrier for 2 km? That part is the runway - it would require some hours of preparation before it would be usable, it's not quite "declare mayday and dump the plane there."
  - noduerme 4y ago
    ah, that's very cool. Makes me think of all kinds of NATO-level shit that's strewn around the world waiting to be uncovered ;) The thing with the road in Uruguay is that as you're driving, there's basically a yellow sign with a picture of an airplane and an arrow pointing up, and you're like "what the fuck did that mean?" And then suddenly you understand exactly what it meant because you're driving on a fucking runway...
    - Piskvorrr 4y ago
      As in, "give way to aircraft from above" :D
    - dalkvist 4y ago
      Sweden had/has roads onthe middle of nowhere/forest that has more free space on the sides and at each end of particularly strate and flat stretches, there are oversized parking spots. Supposedly so fighter planes could refuse and rearm from mobile crews
scheme271 4y ago
Lake Shore Drive in Chicago has also been used as an emergency landing runway but smaller general aviation aircraft complete. At least one of the planes ended up flying under a pedestrian bridge over lake shore drive during the landing.
philjohn 4y ago
Sounds similar to Gibraltar airport, which is both a civilian airstrip, as well as a military one (the military base is opposite the passenger terminal). If you haven't looked into Gibraltar airport before, it's a fascinating thing - the land it's on is reclaimed using rock dug out from the siege tunnels, there's a level crossing on it as the only route into the town crosses the runway; if a plane is coming into land, or taking off, you have to wait at the barriers. It's also the city airport closest to the city centre it serves at 500m.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  The level crossing has been moved underground a few years ago.
  - philjohn 4y ago
    awww, that's a shame, haven't been for about 6 years, but that was always a favourite part.
    - wkat4242 4y ago
      True, it's kinda special aviation history. Like the Kai Tak approach. But I think that for security and traffic reasons (eg foreign debris) it would have had to change eventually.
kqr 4y ago
> The infrastructural insurance spent to prevent lives lost in air travel appears to be much higher than lives on road travel. Could it be that the insurance is for the aircraft, not the lives? I would be surprised if the cost of equipment and training pilots and whatelse was not factored in. But the major driver might be that you have to pay for more expensive insurance to get regular people to strap themselves into something going many miles per hour many feet above the ground. Not because it's inherently less safe (though I would argue it is) but because the prospect is scarier!

by robga 4y ago

midasuni 4y ago

To cross the Atlantic between NA and Europe you need to be able to travel 138 minutes from an airport, although for almost the entire area it’s 120 minutes. This is accomplished by having air strips which can take massive planes like A350s at remote places which can’t justify planes of that size normally like Newfoundland, Greenland and the Azores While these are mainly there for military and temporary emergency use, in 2001 they were used far more - with dozens of planes landing at tiny towns like Gander and St. John’s in Newfoundland, places which only really expect a single large plane to land and refuel rather than 30 with passengers to accommodate for days.

cjrp 4y ago
To cross the Atlantic with a twin-engined plane has that requirement (ETOPS).
- robga 4y ago
  This was a fun rabbit hole to go down, with the ETOPS [1] hint. I enjoyed the history of ETOPS-138 [0]. ETOPS-120 leaves some small triangles of the Atlantic inaccessible, particularly if one emergency airfield is unavailable. A 15% increase to 138 minutes covers it. Anecdotally, though, my experience as a commercial passenger feels like airlines fly almost directly over pacific islands rather than within X minutes of diversion. My memory may be anchored in bygone years. [0] https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/30979/why-etops-207-minutes https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/30979/why-etops... [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS
  - squaresmile 4y ago
    gcmap can map path with etops consideration http://www.gcmap.com/mapui http://www.gcmap.com/mapui > pacific islands Depending on the jet streams, the flight can take the great circle route [0] or taking advantage of the jet stream [1] and flying more southernly [0] https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL6/history/20230108/0215Z/RJTT/KJFK https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL6/history/20230108/02... [1] https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL6/history/20230105/0215Z/RJTT/KJFK https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL6/history/20230105/02...
    - phire 4y ago
      Even then, it didn't take the actual great circle route because Russia. The Japan to Europe flights are even worse. The great circle route cuts west, straight across Russia [0]. These days, they fly east to the Bering Strait then more or less directly over the north pole [1] (though probably easier to see on great-circle: [2]) [0] http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HND-FRA http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HND-FRA [1] https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DLH717/history/20230109/0345Z/RJTT/EDDF https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DLH717/history/20230109/... [2] http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HND-NUZAN-KUTAL-FRA http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HND-NUZAN-KUTAL-FRA
      - iso1631 4y ago
t0mas88 4y ago
The maximum time you can be away from a suitable landing spot depends on the ETOPS certification (or 60 minutes if you don't have one). The certification is specific to the type of plane and operator. A modern 777 at most airlines for example has an ETOPS rating of 180 minutes. That's 180 minutes of flying with a failed engine. So you have to take into account whether you can maintain altitude on 1 engine. Most of the time you can't, you'll be flying lower. Which means slower speed, so the calculation is 180 minutes at that speed.
Erwin 4y ago
Gander's role in 2001 was made into a musical, and it's quite a touching and heailng piece of entertainment if you were around back then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcI1EKE01S0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcI1EKE01S0 -- certainly best on stage if you can find it, but also available on Apple TV.

noduerme 4y ago

One of the coolest emergency airfields I can think of is, literally, Uruguay Route 9, along the coast of the country, where a 2-lane highway becomes an enormous runway that you continue driving along. I don't know if there were any famous landings there; I heard it's only used rarely by the Presidential jet. Here's where it is: https://goo.gl/maps/fpwxuPzGVDtDEKmB8 https://goo.gl/maps/fpwxuPzGVDtDEKmB8 and what it looks like when you drive on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C5LSrRkFyU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C5LSrRkFyU

Piskvorrr 4y ago
Not that uncommon. The Czech motorway D1 can be converted to a military airstrip here: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.3870307,15.9211894,289m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4 https://www.google.com/maps/@49.3870307,15.9211894,289m/data... See where the grass divider ends, and gets replaced by a jersey barrier for 2 km? That part is the runway - it would require some hours of preparation before it would be usable, it's not quite "declare mayday and dump the plane there."
- noduerme 4y ago
  ah, that's very cool. Makes me think of all kinds of NATO-level shit that's strewn around the world waiting to be uncovered ;) The thing with the road in Uruguay is that as you're driving, there's basically a yellow sign with a picture of an airplane and an arrow pointing up, and you're like "what the fuck did that mean?" And then suddenly you understand exactly what it meant because you're driving on a fucking runway...
  - Piskvorrr 4y ago
    As in, "give way to aircraft from above" :D
  - dalkvist 4y ago
    Sweden had/has roads onthe middle of nowhere/forest that has more free space on the sides and at each end of particularly strate and flat stretches, there are oversized parking spots. Supposedly so fighter planes could refuse and rearm from mobile crews

scheme271 4y ago

Lake Shore Drive in Chicago has also been used as an emergency landing runway but smaller general aviation aircraft complete. At least one of the planes ended up flying under a pedestrian bridge over lake shore drive during the landing.

philjohn 4y ago

Sounds similar to Gibraltar airport, which is both a civilian airstrip, as well as a military one (the military base is opposite the passenger terminal). If you haven't looked into Gibraltar airport before, it's a fascinating thing - the land it's on is reclaimed using rock dug out from the siege tunnels, there's a level crossing on it as the only route into the town crosses the runway; if a plane is coming into land, or taking off, you have to wait at the barriers. It's also the city airport closest to the city centre it serves at 500m.

wkat4242 4y ago
The level crossing has been moved underground a few years ago.
- philjohn 4y ago
  awww, that's a shame, haven't been for about 6 years, but that was always a favourite part.
  - wkat4242 4y ago
    True, it's kinda special aviation history. Like the Kai Tak approach. But I think that for security and traffic reasons (eg foreign debris) it would have had to change eventually.

kqr 4y ago

> The infrastructural insurance spent to prevent lives lost in air travel appears to be much higher than lives on road travel. Could it be that the insurance is for the aircraft, not the lives? I would be surprised if the cost of equipment and training pilots and whatelse was not factored in. But the major driver might be that you have to pay for more expensive insurance to get regular people to strap themselves into something going many miles per hour many feet above the ground. Not because it's inherently less safe (though I would argue it is) but because the prospect is scarier!