4 ms·

These are all examples of tradeoffs that have been made, and just collecting examples of the downsides of those tradeoffs without mentioning the upsides. Touch

These are all examples of tradeoffs that have been made, and just collecting examples of the downsides of those tradeoffs without mentioning the upsides. Touchscreens are objectively worse than dedicated buttons, but the ability to have more than 4-5 buttons is a huge benefit. additionally, the UI can be less confusing because the button text can change depending on what you're doing, vsm a single physical d-pad and an "ok" button. Similarly, games have traded off fast startup time for richer textures and assets, and the ability to patch bugs.

mfer 4y ago
We're really discussing user experience which has gotten worse. When trade-offs are being evaluated what are they in service of? I'm going to suggest it's something other than a great user experience.
JKCalhoun 4y ago
> but the ability to have more than 4-5 buttons is a huge benefit I know what you're saying but being constrained by dedicated buttons, I would argue, forces you to think very carefully about the controls/user-interface. That discipline likely often leads to a better "interface". Give a designer a touchscreen and they can add buttons, menus, nuanced features without restraint.
- elcritch 4y ago
  I bought a new Mazda last year and it doesn't have a touch screen. Big selling point for me. Overall the UI feels much better than touchscreen ones on Toyotas or GMs, etc. Mainly it feels like some thought went into it. I can operate it without looking too. Unfortunately there's areas where it feels unfinished.
etempleton 4y ago
I don’t mind touchscreens in cars, but there are just some controls that are used all the time and should be buttons. I think most car manufacturers are figuring out that right mix…except perhaps Tesla who is insistent on removing ever tactile button for a touchscreen or capacitive touch button.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  Yep... radio, AC, all the lights etc. should always be physical buttons. Reseting TPMS settings can be done on a touchscreen too. Sadly, even stuff like radio and AC controls in some cars have moved to touchscreens, and that sucks a lot.
  - etempleton 4y ago
    My new vehicle is almost perfect button -touchscreen, but the radio is all touchscreen and it is basically impossible to use while driving.
m463 4y ago
touchscreens in cars might be ok for settings, and the kinds of things you do when you are stopped. But touchscreens have become a mess in cars. Telsa is a horrible offender. I believe the UI designers must have stationary mockups that don't move around like a car. Not only have they removed some dedicated controls, they have eliminated almost ALL dedicated controls now. The new model S/X cars don't have stalks - turn signals are touch buttons on the steering wheel. The car guesses what gear you want to be in. Even older model S/X cars have been affected by updates - the targets have gotten smaller, and critical controls have lost dedicated positions on the screen. for example: navigate home used to be a big button. Now it is tiny. The defrost controls are not only on the touchscreen and tiny, now they can be moved and have state.
- wildhereplzhold 4y ago
  > The car guesses what gear you want to be in. TBF, most automatic transmissions do this, and I think that Teslas only have one gear anyways. Unless...please tell me they don't guess whether you want Park, Drive, Neutral, or Reverse?
  - m463 4y ago
    Yes, it guesses forward or reverse
  - kirkules 4y ago
    To put it into neutral you have to go completely expressionless, let your tongue hang out a little bit, and make sure your face is centered in front of the driver monitoring system
quanticle 4y ago
but the ability to have more than 4-5 buttons is a huge benefit It is? For whom? A few years ago, I upgraded from a 2007 Hyundai Elantra to a 2019 Subaru Legacy. The new car is better in many ways (most notably, having all wheel drive) but the HVAC situation is an absolute regression. In the old Elantra, I have physical knobs. No, not physical buttons that send digital inputs, actual physical mechanical knobs connected directly to the HVAC mechanisms. I miss those knobs every time I have to take my eyes off the road and enter some kind of complicated input to get outside air blowing. In the old car, it was a matter of turning on the fan and making sure the toggle was set to outside air, rather than internal recirculation. In the new car, you have to turn the system on with the on/off button, set the temperature to "low" by twisting the temperature control until the temperature display reads "LO", adjust the fan speed with a +/- button, and then finally get the air blowing where you want by repeatedly pressing the button with the seat icon until the air is blowing at your face (rather than at your feet). The crazy thing is, as bad as all that is, Subaru is one of the better automakers in this regard. They have the HVAC controls broken out into their own separate module on the dashboard, with its own display for the temperature, fan speed, vents, etc. And all the controls have physical buttons, so I can at least feel where the controls are, even if I can no longer determine their current state by feel. Other automakers, like Toyota, Honda and Ford consolidate everything into a single 8" display with capacitive controls. Oh you want to adjust the fan speed while also being able to see the Android Auto UI? Too bad, screw you. Cars have improved in a lot of subtle ways, I'll admit. All-wheel drive has gone from being a relatively high-end option to being far more ubiquitous. For all its warts, I genuinely do appreciate the fact that Android Auto allows me to have a decent GPS and mapping solution built into my car. But if you gave me a way to bring the HVAC controls from my old car into my new car, I'd take it in a heartbeat.
- brigade 4y ago
  > actual physical mechanical knobs connected directly to the HVAC mechanisms I'll admit to not living in Phoenix or the like, and it did take me time to trust climate control after only having simple A/C, but I doubt I'm alone in preferring to only adjust target temperature and letting the car automatically control fan speed and vents. Dunno if Subaru is especially bad at that, but in any situation where the interior is hot enough that you're trying to get "max A/C", I know leaving it at my normal auto 72° will cause VW and Mercedes to choose max A/C and blow out of the top vents. But yeah, designs that completely hide the still-occasionally-used buttons like defrost tend to suck. It sucked in the 2004 Prius, and still generally sucks now. If designers want more console space or minimalism, get rid of big gear shifters instead IMO.

mfer 4y ago

We're really discussing user experience which has gotten worse. When trade-offs are being evaluated what are they in service of? I'm going to suggest it's something other than a great user experience.

JKCalhoun 4y ago

> but the ability to have more than 4-5 buttons is a huge benefit I know what you're saying but being constrained by dedicated buttons, I would argue, forces you to think very carefully about the controls/user-interface. That discipline likely often leads to a better "interface". Give a designer a touchscreen and they can add buttons, menus, nuanced features without restraint.

elcritch 4y ago
I bought a new Mazda last year and it doesn't have a touch screen. Big selling point for me. Overall the UI feels much better than touchscreen ones on Toyotas or GMs, etc. Mainly it feels like some thought went into it. I can operate it without looking too. Unfortunately there's areas where it feels unfinished.

etempleton 4y ago

I don’t mind touchscreens in cars, but there are just some controls that are used all the time and should be buttons. I think most car manufacturers are figuring out that right mix…except perhaps Tesla who is insistent on removing ever tactile button for a touchscreen or capacitive touch button.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
Yep... radio, AC, all the lights etc. should always be physical buttons. Reseting TPMS settings can be done on a touchscreen too. Sadly, even stuff like radio and AC controls in some cars have moved to touchscreens, and that sucks a lot.
- etempleton 4y ago
  My new vehicle is almost perfect button -touchscreen, but the radio is all touchscreen and it is basically impossible to use while driving.

m463 4y ago

touchscreens in cars might be ok for settings, and the kinds of things you do when you are stopped. But touchscreens have become a mess in cars. Telsa is a horrible offender. I believe the UI designers must have stationary mockups that don't move around like a car. Not only have they removed some dedicated controls, they have eliminated almost ALL dedicated controls now. The new model S/X cars don't have stalks - turn signals are touch buttons on the steering wheel. The car guesses what gear you want to be in. Even older model S/X cars have been affected by updates - the targets have gotten smaller, and critical controls have lost dedicated positions on the screen. for example: navigate home used to be a big button. Now it is tiny. The defrost controls are not only on the touchscreen and tiny, now they can be moved and have state.

wildhereplzhold 4y ago
> The car guesses what gear you want to be in. TBF, most automatic transmissions do this, and I think that Teslas only have one gear anyways. Unless...please tell me they don't guess whether you want Park, Drive, Neutral, or Reverse?
- m463 4y ago
  Yes, it guesses forward or reverse
- kirkules 4y ago
  To put it into neutral you have to go completely expressionless, let your tongue hang out a little bit, and make sure your face is centered in front of the driver monitoring system

quanticle 4y ago

but the ability to have more than 4-5 buttons is a huge benefit It is? For whom? A few years ago, I upgraded from a 2007 Hyundai Elantra to a 2019 Subaru Legacy. The new car is better in many ways (most notably, having all wheel drive) but the HVAC situation is an absolute regression. In the old Elantra, I have physical knobs. No, not physical buttons that send digital inputs, actual physical mechanical knobs connected directly to the HVAC mechanisms. I miss those knobs every time I have to take my eyes off the road and enter some kind of complicated input to get outside air blowing. In the old car, it was a matter of turning on the fan and making sure the toggle was set to outside air, rather than internal recirculation. In the new car, you have to turn the system on with the on/off button, set the temperature to "low" by twisting the temperature control until the temperature display reads "LO", adjust the fan speed with a +/- button, and then finally get the air blowing where you want by repeatedly pressing the button with the seat icon until the air is blowing at your face (rather than at your feet). The crazy thing is, as bad as all that is, Subaru is one of the better automakers in this regard. They have the HVAC controls broken out into their own separate module on the dashboard, with its own display for the temperature, fan speed, vents, etc. And all the controls have physical buttons, so I can at least feel where the controls are, even if I can no longer determine their current state by feel. Other automakers, like Toyota, Honda and Ford consolidate everything into a single 8" display with capacitive controls. Oh you want to adjust the fan speed while also being able to see the Android Auto UI? Too bad, screw you. Cars have improved in a lot of subtle ways, I'll admit. All-wheel drive has gone from being a relatively high-end option to being far more ubiquitous. For all its warts, I genuinely do appreciate the fact that Android Auto allows me to have a decent GPS and mapping solution built into my car. But if you gave me a way to bring the HVAC controls from my old car into my new car, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

brigade 4y ago
> actual physical mechanical knobs connected directly to the HVAC mechanisms I'll admit to not living in Phoenix or the like, and it did take me time to trust climate control after only having simple A/C, but I doubt I'm alone in preferring to only adjust target temperature and letting the car automatically control fan speed and vents. Dunno if Subaru is especially bad at that, but in any situation where the interior is hot enough that you're trying to get "max A/C", I know leaving it at my normal auto 72° will cause VW and Mercedes to choose max A/C and blow out of the top vents. But yeah, designs that completely hide the still-occasionally-used buttons like defrost tend to suck. It sucked in the 2004 Prius, and still generally sucks now. If designers want more console space or minimalism, get rid of big gear shifters instead IMO.