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>The company offers old-fashioned middle-class jobs and is enjoying record profits. So why is a strike looming? Heh. Most UPS workers are working-class in trad

by nabla9 4y ago

>The company offers old-fashioned middle-class jobs and is enjoying record profits. So why is a strike looming? Heh. Most UPS workers are working-class in traditional classification. "American middle-class" is extremely stretched concept.

paxys 4y ago
Working class and middle class are not mutually exclusive.
- remram 4y ago
  Yes it is, you're making his point.
  - rcme 4y ago
    No, in the U.S., the middle class can include much of the working class. The middle class has typically included the entirety of the manufacturing sector prior to the year 2000. When people vote for politicians who say they're going to bring back manufacturing jobs, those voters aren't clamoring for lower-class wages, obviously.
    - remram 4y ago
      Yes. In America, "middle-class" is everybody if you ask them, i.e. it is an extremely stretched concept.
      - rcme 4y ago
        That’s because, after WWII, you could do basically any job in the US and afford things we typically associate with the middle class, e.g. a modest home in a decent neighborhood. So everyone really was middle class.
        remram 4y ago
        Yes, they are not working class.
        rcme 4y ago
        People who work factory jobs aren’t “working class”? Who is working class then? To be honest, it sounds like your definition of working class is the definition that’s being stretched. Upper / middle / lower class is about wealth. In a society with little income inequality, the middle class can become quite large. “Working class” is a class related to a type of work. In most places, the jobs that make up the working class are low paying, so the working class is also lower class. But this didn’t use to be the case in the US.
        remram 4y ago
        From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class): > The modern usage of the term "middle-class", however, dates to the 1913 UK Registrar-General's report, in which the statistician T.H.C. Stevenson identified the middle class as those falling between the upper-class and the working-class. "Middle" literally stands for "between" working-class and upper-class. What do you think it's in the middle of? You can also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class#Academic_models https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class#Academic... for a comparison of different contemporary models of the American middle-class specifically (all of which place the middle class in the middle of working-class and some other class, obviously).
  - acdha 4y ago
    Not in the United States. Generally middle-class stretched to something along the lines of having enough income you own a home, at least one car, etc. and a level of financial stability (you can take a vacation, plan to retire, etc. even if not lavishly) and access to healthcare. This did not require a professional job – a skilled carpenter or plumber, union factory worker, career postal worker, etc. probably qualified - but that started changing around the time Reagan was elected. When politicians talk about bringing good jobs back, that’s the image they’re trying to conjure up.
    - remram 4y ago
      Middle-class literally stands for "in the middle" of working-class and upper class. You can disagree on who's in there, how many are in there, etc but disagreeing about what it means is futile. The middle class is not the working class, by definition. See also sibling subthread.
      - acdha 4y ago
        Again, your mistake is in assuming that there’s a single unambiguous definition. As other people have attempted to help you learn that is not true in popular usage. Rather than unsuccessfully being pedantic it would be better to more precisely state which particular attributes you care about in the context of the larger conversation.
        remram 4y ago
        Popular usage seems to be just you two. I have provided sources in the other subthread, telling me what you think everyone believes is unconvincing.
        acdha 4y ago
        Less inaccurately, you cherry-picked a single quote on Wikipedia from a century old source and ignored the rest of the page saying that definitions vary. I’m not sure why you feel the need to belabor this point but would suggest reading the entire page or at least the first paragraph: > Common definitions for the middle class range from the middle fifth of individuals on a nation's income ladder, to everyone but the poorest and wealthiest 20%
- SkeuomorphicBee 4y ago
  Yes, they are mutually exclusive. There are two different meanings of "middle class" being used in this kind of discussion: 1. The class of people who live of their work but owns their own means of production (e.g. independent professionals like dentists, lawyers, or independent tradesmen like plumbers, electricians). This definition sits in the middle between the working class (who has to work for an employer) and the ruling class (who employs others to work for them). 2. The class of people with the middle earnings, regardless of how they earn their money. This definition sits in the middle between the poor and the rich. So, if you are comparing middle class and working class you are clearly using meaning #1, in which case they are mutually exclusive by definition. To be clear, not everyone who works is working class, the working class is just those who have to sell their labor to a middleman because they don't own the means to work directly to a customer.
mardifoufs 4y ago
"Traditional" as in... British? Because the definition of middle class is quite a bit different in the US.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  No, traditional as in people who take home like $60k a year are not middle class.
hammock 4y ago
These days with over half of households paying zero income tax, if you have a job at all and aren’t on welfare or disability, you are at least “middle class.” And working class at the same time
kube-system 4y ago
> the average driver earning ninety-five thousand dollars a year An individual making that amount is in the top 20% of earners in the US. How high of an income do you think people need to attain middle class?
- nabla9 4y ago
  Working class does not mean low income. Working class is the most of the people. Blue collar workers can make more money than middle class, because definition of class is not just money. working class: the social group consisting primarily of people who are employed in unskilled or semi-skilled manual or industrial work.

by nabla9 4y ago

paxys 4y ago

Working class and middle class are not mutually exclusive.

remram 4y ago
Yes it is, you're making his point.
- rcme 4y ago
  No, in the U.S., the middle class can include much of the working class. The middle class has typically included the entirety of the manufacturing sector prior to the year 2000. When people vote for politicians who say they're going to bring back manufacturing jobs, those voters aren't clamoring for lower-class wages, obviously.
  - remram 4y ago
    Yes. In America, "middle-class" is everybody if you ask them, i.e. it is an extremely stretched concept.
    - rcme 4y ago
      That’s because, after WWII, you could do basically any job in the US and afford things we typically associate with the middle class, e.g. a modest home in a decent neighborhood. So everyone really was middle class.
      - remram 4y ago
        Yes, they are not working class.
        rcme 4y ago
        People who work factory jobs aren’t “working class”? Who is working class then? To be honest, it sounds like your definition of working class is the definition that’s being stretched. Upper / middle / lower class is about wealth. In a society with little income inequality, the middle class can become quite large. “Working class” is a class related to a type of work. In most places, the jobs that make up the working class are low paying, so the working class is also lower class. But this didn’t use to be the case in the US.
        remram 4y ago
        From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class): > The modern usage of the term "middle-class", however, dates to the 1913 UK Registrar-General's report, in which the statistician T.H.C. Stevenson identified the middle class as those falling between the upper-class and the working-class. "Middle" literally stands for "between" working-class and upper-class. What do you think it's in the middle of? You can also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class#Academic_models https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class#Academic... for a comparison of different contemporary models of the American middle-class specifically (all of which place the middle class in the middle of working-class and some other class, obviously).
- acdha 4y ago
  Not in the United States. Generally middle-class stretched to something along the lines of having enough income you own a home, at least one car, etc. and a level of financial stability (you can take a vacation, plan to retire, etc. even if not lavishly) and access to healthcare. This did not require a professional job – a skilled carpenter or plumber, union factory worker, career postal worker, etc. probably qualified - but that started changing around the time Reagan was elected. When politicians talk about bringing good jobs back, that’s the image they’re trying to conjure up.
  - remram 4y ago
    Middle-class literally stands for "in the middle" of working-class and upper class. You can disagree on who's in there, how many are in there, etc but disagreeing about what it means is futile. The middle class is not the working class, by definition. See also sibling subthread.
    - acdha 4y ago
      Again, your mistake is in assuming that there’s a single unambiguous definition. As other people have attempted to help you learn that is not true in popular usage. Rather than unsuccessfully being pedantic it would be better to more precisely state which particular attributes you care about in the context of the larger conversation.
      - remram 4y ago
        Popular usage seems to be just you two. I have provided sources in the other subthread, telling me what you think everyone believes is unconvincing.
        acdha 4y ago
        Less inaccurately, you cherry-picked a single quote on Wikipedia from a century old source and ignored the rest of the page saying that definitions vary. I’m not sure why you feel the need to belabor this point but would suggest reading the entire page or at least the first paragraph: > Common definitions for the middle class range from the middle fifth of individuals on a nation's income ladder, to everyone but the poorest and wealthiest 20%
SkeuomorphicBee 4y ago
Yes, they are mutually exclusive. There are two different meanings of "middle class" being used in this kind of discussion: 1. The class of people who live of their work but owns their own means of production (e.g. independent professionals like dentists, lawyers, or independent tradesmen like plumbers, electricians). This definition sits in the middle between the working class (who has to work for an employer) and the ruling class (who employs others to work for them). 2. The class of people with the middle earnings, regardless of how they earn their money. This definition sits in the middle between the poor and the rich. So, if you are comparing middle class and working class you are clearly using meaning #1, in which case they are mutually exclusive by definition. To be clear, not everyone who works is working class, the working class is just those who have to sell their labor to a middleman because they don't own the means to work directly to a customer.

mardifoufs 4y ago

"Traditional" as in... British? Because the definition of middle class is quite a bit different in the US.

mrguyorama 4y ago
No, traditional as in people who take home like $60k a year are not middle class.

hammock 4y ago

These days with over half of households paying zero income tax, if you have a job at all and aren’t on welfare or disability, you are at least “middle class.” And working class at the same time

kube-system 4y ago

> the average driver earning ninety-five thousand dollars a year An individual making that amount is in the top 20% of earners in the US. How high of an income do you think people need to attain middle class?

nabla9 4y ago
Working class does not mean low income. Working class is the most of the people. Blue collar workers can make more money than middle class, because definition of class is not just money. working class: the social group consisting primarily of people who are employed in unskilled or semi-skilled manual or industrial work.