4 ms·

> but just be aware that not ALL gas stoves are problematic if set up correctly and burning cleanly. There is no such thing as a clean burning gas stove. Even

by danans 4y ago

> but just be aware that not ALL gas stoves are problematic if set up correctly and burning cleanly. There is no such thing as a clean burning gas stove. Even when not in use, they leak methane, and the majority of methane they leak is when they are not in use. All gas stoves and ovens, regardless of cost or age, put levels of pollutants into indoor air that are greater than what is safe [1]. A $15k Wolf range is no better than a $1500 range. The solutions are to either introduce a lot of ventilation, or switch to non combustion cooking. 1. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707

hedora 4y ago
However, there is such a thing as an even dirtier burning gas stove. For instance, put a natural gas regulator on a propane supplied burner, or vice versa. Also, even a properly tuned range will emit all sorts of things that are much worse than methane.
lukev 4y ago
Methane (at the volumes we're taking about) does not have significant health effects; the paper you link speaks mostly about its effect as a greenhouse gas. And I'm measuring my NO2 and it's within safe levels. So should I believe you or my own lying eyes? Granted, a lot of this may be due to other effects (e.g, ventilation) and I agree my next stovetop won't be gas. But clearly some setups are less problematic than others and it's not the case that everyone is poisoning themselves unless they go buy an electric tomorrow.
- danans 4y ago
  > So should I believe you or my own lying eyes? That's a question only you can answer. > But clearly some setups are less problematic than others and it's not the case that everyone is poisoning themselves unless they go buy an electric tomorrow I didn't say everyone should go electric tomorrow. But people are exposing themselves to (IMO high) indoor air pollution by using gas stoves without running an extractor fan and opening windows. A lot of people (everyone I know at least) only run the extractor to get rid of food smells, not for natural gas combustion byproducts, which is a mistake.
kragen 4y ago
though any gas other than air will kill you at a high enough dose, methane is pretty extremely safe; wikipedia claims the major risk if you avoid blowing yourself up is that it can displace air and thus oxygen
StillBored 4y ago
That article claims the stove is leaking ~1% of its burned fuel. Which seems really unlikely, and deeper in they seem to claim its largely from the ignition cycle. Which is still _really_ hard to believe even on my old stove which generally takes a few arc's before there is enough gas near the spark igniter to catch. Even if you assume that 100% of the gas loss in the time between when I turn it on, and it goes whoosh and burns all that fuel is wasted (say up to a full second) I would then have to leave the stove on for less than 100 seconds at full blast or double that if I turn the flow down by 1/2 for that gas to equal 1% of the gas used during the cycle. Anyway, compared with the volume of methane in human flatulence, I would be worried more about how good the bathroom ventilation is than how much of unburnt methane manages to avoid being burned and also sucked out the fume hood. So, I too am skeptical about these home air sensors, I have one of the egg ones, that claims to measure PPM (CO2/etc). Yet it was spiking every morning, and at first I thought it was my wife putting on perfume, but it happens even when she isn't home in the morning... After watching it and what happens in my house, I suspect its largely measuring the humidity in the air from the shower. Doing nothing but turning the shower on causes it to spike a few mins later and then gradually go down for the rest of the day. I guess I didn't think that the majority of the PPM "pollution" in my house is actually just water droplets. Thats a lot different than all the fly-ash or whatever they want you to think is the problem. (edit: just to be clear, I'm not denying indoor pollution, only that the sensor I have, while marketed as such, isn't actually measuring pollution if most of what its measuring is mist from the showerhead).
- schiffern 4y ago
  >they seem to claim its largely from the ignition cycle Not so. In the abstract, they say that over three-fourths of their 1% estimate was from when the appliance is not in use ("steady-state-off"). See Figure 5. >the sensor... isn't actually measuring pollution if most of what its measuring is mist from the showerhead It's possible your sensor is actually measuring particulate aerosols created when the water droplets evaporate, leaving behind tiny particles due to dissolved solids.[1] The effect is similar to the "salt spray" aerosols formed by ocean wave action. The long residence time you report ("gradually go down for the rest of the day") makes this almost guaranteed, since tiny airborne water droplets will evaporate in under one minute at a typical indoor humidity of 50%.[2] Hope this helps! [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17195485/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17195485/ [2] (see Table 2) https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10867-020-09562-5#Tab2 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10867-020-09562-5...
maxerickson 4y ago
How does a study that isolates the air around the stove in order to measure the emissions translate into the levels of pollutants that end up in the average home with a stove? I should definitely fix my vent hood though.
midoridensha 4y ago
>There is no such thing as a clean burning gas stove. Even when not in use, they leak methane, and the majority of methane they leak is when they are not in use. How exactly does a gas stove leak methane (or anything else) when it's turned off, so there's no gas flowing?
- danans 4y ago
  The valves that open when the stove is operating are not perfectly sealed (they can't be). They allow a bit of methane to leak constantly.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    Is this something about American-style gas stoves, or all gas stoves? Why would it be impossible to have a valve with a perfect (or reasonably perfect, obviously nothing mechanical is absolutely perfect) seal? A normal ball valve in a gas line is perfectly sealed; why would the valve in a stove be any different?
    - Brian_K_White 4y ago
      What magic world do you think we live in? Everything leaks at all times. And when discussing policy and things at scale, you factor in the total picture where 80% of the individual examples will be one or more of: damaged, installed wrong, 35 years old, used incorrectly, cheaply designed, cheaply made, etc etc, not the perfect ideal lab example. To be clear, I am firmly in the 'keep gas stoves' camp because they simply work the best for that job, the alternatives are not actually alternatives, and I don't think any of these articles actually show that they are harmful, or at least stand out from any other source of of stuff in the air. But of course they leak. That isn't even remotely a remarkable claim. 'off' in the real world only ever means 'mostly off'.

by danans 4y ago

hedora 4y ago

However, there is such a thing as an even dirtier burning gas stove. For instance, put a natural gas regulator on a propane supplied burner, or vice versa. Also, even a properly tuned range will emit all sorts of things that are much worse than methane.

lukev 4y ago

Methane (at the volumes we're taking about) does not have significant health effects; the paper you link speaks mostly about its effect as a greenhouse gas. And I'm measuring my NO2 and it's within safe levels. So should I believe you or my own lying eyes? Granted, a lot of this may be due to other effects (e.g, ventilation) and I agree my next stovetop won't be gas. But clearly some setups are less problematic than others and it's not the case that everyone is poisoning themselves unless they go buy an electric tomorrow.

danans 4y ago
> So should I believe you or my own lying eyes? That's a question only you can answer. > But clearly some setups are less problematic than others and it's not the case that everyone is poisoning themselves unless they go buy an electric tomorrow I didn't say everyone should go electric tomorrow. But people are exposing themselves to (IMO high) indoor air pollution by using gas stoves without running an extractor fan and opening windows. A lot of people (everyone I know at least) only run the extractor to get rid of food smells, not for natural gas combustion byproducts, which is a mistake.

kragen 4y ago

though any gas other than air will kill you at a high enough dose, methane is pretty extremely safe; wikipedia claims the major risk if you avoid blowing yourself up is that it can displace air and thus oxygen

StillBored 4y ago

That article claims the stove is leaking ~1% of its burned fuel. Which seems really unlikely, and deeper in they seem to claim its largely from the ignition cycle. Which is still _really_ hard to believe even on my old stove which generally takes a few arc's before there is enough gas near the spark igniter to catch. Even if you assume that 100% of the gas loss in the time between when I turn it on, and it goes whoosh and burns all that fuel is wasted (say up to a full second) I would then have to leave the stove on for less than 100 seconds at full blast or double that if I turn the flow down by 1/2 for that gas to equal 1% of the gas used during the cycle. Anyway, compared with the volume of methane in human flatulence, I would be worried more about how good the bathroom ventilation is than how much of unburnt methane manages to avoid being burned and also sucked out the fume hood. So, I too am skeptical about these home air sensors, I have one of the egg ones, that claims to measure PPM (CO2/etc). Yet it was spiking every morning, and at first I thought it was my wife putting on perfume, but it happens even when she isn't home in the morning... After watching it and what happens in my house, I suspect its largely measuring the humidity in the air from the shower. Doing nothing but turning the shower on causes it to spike a few mins later and then gradually go down for the rest of the day. I guess I didn't think that the majority of the PPM "pollution" in my house is actually just water droplets. Thats a lot different than all the fly-ash or whatever they want you to think is the problem. (edit: just to be clear, I'm not denying indoor pollution, only that the sensor I have, while marketed as such, isn't actually measuring pollution if most of what its measuring is mist from the showerhead).

schiffern 4y ago
>they seem to claim its largely from the ignition cycle Not so. In the abstract, they say that over three-fourths of their 1% estimate was from when the appliance is not in use ("steady-state-off"). See Figure 5. >the sensor... isn't actually measuring pollution if most of what its measuring is mist from the showerhead It's possible your sensor is actually measuring particulate aerosols created when the water droplets evaporate, leaving behind tiny particles due to dissolved solids.[1] The effect is similar to the "salt spray" aerosols formed by ocean wave action. The long residence time you report ("gradually go down for the rest of the day") makes this almost guaranteed, since tiny airborne water droplets will evaporate in under one minute at a typical indoor humidity of 50%.[2] Hope this helps! [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17195485/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17195485/ [2] (see Table 2) https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10867-020-09562-5#Tab2 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10867-020-09562-5...

maxerickson 4y ago

How does a study that isolates the air around the stove in order to measure the emissions translate into the levels of pollutants that end up in the average home with a stove? I should definitely fix my vent hood though.

midoridensha 4y ago

>There is no such thing as a clean burning gas stove. Even when not in use, they leak methane, and the majority of methane they leak is when they are not in use. How exactly does a gas stove leak methane (or anything else) when it's turned off, so there's no gas flowing?

danans 4y ago
The valves that open when the stove is operating are not perfectly sealed (they can't be). They allow a bit of methane to leak constantly.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  Is this something about American-style gas stoves, or all gas stoves? Why would it be impossible to have a valve with a perfect (or reasonably perfect, obviously nothing mechanical is absolutely perfect) seal? A normal ball valve in a gas line is perfectly sealed; why would the valve in a stove be any different?
  - Brian_K_White 4y ago
    What magic world do you think we live in? Everything leaks at all times. And when discussing policy and things at scale, you factor in the total picture where 80% of the individual examples will be one or more of: damaged, installed wrong, 35 years old, used incorrectly, cheaply designed, cheaply made, etc etc, not the perfect ideal lab example. To be clear, I am firmly in the 'keep gas stoves' camp because they simply work the best for that job, the alternatives are not actually alternatives, and I don't think any of these articles actually show that they are harmful, or at least stand out from any other source of of stuff in the air. But of course they leak. That isn't even remotely a remarkable claim. 'off' in the real world only ever means 'mostly off'.