4 ms·

They may not be "pure evil" but they are clearly extremely bad. What does a balanced view of that look like for you?

alfor 4y ago
In this article I understand the concern about NOx, good ventilation, a detector might be a good idea. A quick look at the site show how much it is targeting at fighting all fossil fuels. But fossil fuels are the backbone of our civilisation. Yes we need to transition, and it’s happening, but if you were to cut them off completely I think that more that half of the world population would die in the next 12 months. So let’s be careful with that transition, we can easily kill more people by raising the cost of fuel than saving future people from hypothetical climate catastrophes or from NOx. Whatever what the activists and government does, the pricing alone is driving out all fossil fuels. Solar, wind and batteries are already cheaper than the other alternatives. It’s just a question of a few years.
lazide 4y ago
With a decent hood, they are not clearly bad.
- Zagill 4y ago
  The emissions from such stoves is a large part of what makes them "extremely bad"
  - lazide 4y ago
    Which emissions, exactly? With a proper hood, they aren’t an issue inside. When working properly, they are also quite minor.
ethanbond 4y ago
The obvious outcome of the "both sides"-ism of late: We need to give equal airtime to the Inhaling Ignited Hydrocarbons Is Okay Actually group. Sources don't matter, depth of analysis doesn't matter, expert consensus doesn't matter, basic risk mitigation principles don't matter, what matters is that wherever a view is shared, all other views must be shared at equal volume and with equal credence.
- alfor 4y ago
  Just basic common sense would do. Everything is dangerous and has some risks, but usually weights the risks against other things, we see what are the ways to mitigate them, etc. If you say that gas stove is bad for indoor air quality, how does it compare to making toasts or having carpet and a bit more dust or living close to roads with lots of circulation. When it become a religious fervor, when there is only one side of the coin, that’s where there I see a problem.
- GauntletWizard 4y ago
  The obvious outcome of "Misinformation and hate speech" policing of late. Proponents of things that are synonymous with civilization cannot have any airtime at all.
  - mysteryalias 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - kragen 4y ago
      most of usenet was unmoderated for decades, and was consequently the best source of information on a huge variety of topics, though it certainly was full of trolls the nazi revival seems to have come out of newer heavily censored platforms like twitter and youtube
  - 1270018080 4y ago
    Right, the only defense of inhaling hydrocarbons is some kind of trad culture war thing. Like because something bad is happening it has to continue happening because it's a part of my "civilization".
- lr4444lr 4y ago
  Strawman. 37000 people die each year in vehicular accidents, but somehow people think there's a benefit to using cars, and to use them without making them 3X as expensive just to save perhaps half of those lives. So too do we continue to use gas appliances because they're relatively cheap, effective, and resilient, and if you want to convince us the harm is too great, then quantify it for our judgement.
lukev 4y ago
Gas stoves (like everything else) have pros and cons. CO2 emissions are certainly a major con, which is why my next stove will be an induction. I got a gas ten years ago because induction cooktops were not widely available and the cook quality of gas is far higher than non-induction electric, and I cook a lot and really need quality tools. Facts matter, and it doesn't do anyone any good to paint something as "extremely bad" without balancing all relevant facts. Acknowledging that gas stoves are often (but not always) bad for indoor air quality is part of that.
- ajross 4y ago
  We did a kitchen reno 11 years ago and hopped on the induction bandwagon then. There were a pretty good number of options at the high end (i.e. 30" standalone, not an integrated/oven unit). Induction is hot (heh) right now, but it's been a realistic option for a good while now.
- bodangly 4y ago
  I really can’t understand this perspective. Perhaps cheap gas is better than cheap electric cooktops. But my Miele which is radiant, not even induction, heats up VERY fast and provides a very predictable amount of heat via the digital interface. I cook a lot, and thought I’d miss gas when buying my new house, but just about the only change I needed was to get a flat bottomed wok. Electric can definitely be more than adequate on the high end, imo.
  - huffmsa 4y ago
    > digital interface Like a touchscreen?
    - bodangly 4y ago
      Sort of but less high tech than most think of w that word, it’s a “touchscreen” - red LEDs tell you the level.

In this article I understand the concern about NOx, good ventilation, a detector might be a good idea. A quick look at the site show how much it is targeting at fighting all fossil fuels. But fossil fuels are the backbone of our civilisation. Yes we need to transition, and it’s happening, but if you were to cut them off completely I think that more that half of the world population would die in the next 12 months. So let’s be careful with that transition, we can easily kill more people by raising the cost of fuel than saving future people from hypothetical climate catastrophes or from NOx. Whatever what the activists and government does, the pricing alone is driving out all fossil fuels. Solar, wind and batteries are already cheaper than the other alternatives. It’s just a question of a few years.

lazide 4y ago

With a decent hood, they are not clearly bad.

Zagill 4y ago
The emissions from such stoves is a large part of what makes them "extremely bad"
- lazide 4y ago
  Which emissions, exactly? With a proper hood, they aren’t an issue inside. When working properly, they are also quite minor.

ethanbond 4y ago

The obvious outcome of the "both sides"-ism of late: We need to give equal airtime to the Inhaling Ignited Hydrocarbons Is Okay Actually group. Sources don't matter, depth of analysis doesn't matter, expert consensus doesn't matter, basic risk mitigation principles don't matter, what matters is that wherever a view is shared, all other views must be shared at equal volume and with equal credence.

alfor 4y ago
Just basic common sense would do. Everything is dangerous and has some risks, but usually weights the risks against other things, we see what are the ways to mitigate them, etc. If you say that gas stove is bad for indoor air quality, how does it compare to making toasts or having carpet and a bit more dust or living close to roads with lots of circulation. When it become a religious fervor, when there is only one side of the coin, that’s where there I see a problem.
GauntletWizard 4y ago
The obvious outcome of "Misinformation and hate speech" policing of late. Proponents of things that are synonymous with civilization cannot have any airtime at all.
- mysteryalias 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - kragen 4y ago
    most of usenet was unmoderated for decades, and was consequently the best source of information on a huge variety of topics, though it certainly was full of trolls the nazi revival seems to have come out of newer heavily censored platforms like twitter and youtube
- 1270018080 4y ago
  Right, the only defense of inhaling hydrocarbons is some kind of trad culture war thing. Like because something bad is happening it has to continue happening because it's a part of my "civilization".
lr4444lr 4y ago
Strawman. 37000 people die each year in vehicular accidents, but somehow people think there's a benefit to using cars, and to use them without making them 3X as expensive just to save perhaps half of those lives. So too do we continue to use gas appliances because they're relatively cheap, effective, and resilient, and if you want to convince us the harm is too great, then quantify it for our judgement.

lukev 4y ago

Gas stoves (like everything else) have pros and cons. CO2 emissions are certainly a major con, which is why my next stove will be an induction. I got a gas ten years ago because induction cooktops were not widely available and the cook quality of gas is far higher than non-induction electric, and I cook a lot and really need quality tools. Facts matter, and it doesn't do anyone any good to paint something as "extremely bad" without balancing all relevant facts. Acknowledging that gas stoves are often (but not always) bad for indoor air quality is part of that.

ajross 4y ago
We did a kitchen reno 11 years ago and hopped on the induction bandwagon then. There were a pretty good number of options at the high end (i.e. 30" standalone, not an integrated/oven unit). Induction is hot (heh) right now, but it's been a realistic option for a good while now.
bodangly 4y ago
I really can’t understand this perspective. Perhaps cheap gas is better than cheap electric cooktops. But my Miele which is radiant, not even induction, heats up VERY fast and provides a very predictable amount of heat via the digital interface. I cook a lot, and thought I’d miss gas when buying my new house, but just about the only change I needed was to get a flat bottomed wok. Electric can definitely be more than adequate on the high end, imo.
- huffmsa 4y ago
  > digital interface Like a touchscreen?
  - bodangly 4y ago
    Sort of but less high tech than most think of w that word, it’s a “touchscreen” - red LEDs tell you the level.