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I would like to say that I'm generally a pretty experienced outdoorsman. I camp, hike, backpack, snowshoe, boulder,sport climb, used to snowboard extensively an

I would like to say that I'm generally a pretty experienced outdoorsman. I camp, hike, backpack, snowshoe, boulder,sport climb, used to snowboard extensively and do whitewater rafting. I've summitted Mt. Washington, NH in late October, done plenty of hikes from Death Valley and the Mojave to Sequoia NP, to the bright angel trail, etc. Enough to say I've got some experience, and done my fair share of risky stuff. Most people really should not be in the wilderness. It sounds elitist, but truthfully, the vast majority of people are unable to handle themselves in nature. They can't navigate using a map & compass, they get too close to wildlife and feed them, they don't adequately store their food in animal-resistant containers, don't understand how to treat water and deal with small medical issues, don't understand FIRE RISKS, how to manage fires and simply how to not have fires. They trample off trail and destroy flora. They don't carry first-aid or basic survival kits. They carry inadequate gear. I could go on and on. Most people do not belong in nature. There are so many facets of safety and competence that go into safely exploring the wild, it's impossible to enumerate them here. Stuff like climate, rockfall risk, relative isolation, tempurature changes between day/night, wind, animal risks, etc. Knowing where you're going, how long it'll take, having a backup plan, leaving an itinerary with a trusted person, knowing the profile & route of your travel, knowing what's likely to go wrong, understanding the danger of drinking untreated water, checking sources to see what potential issues have or may arise commonly, being able to tell direction based on the sun & stars. These are all basic skills of outdoorsmanship that most people do not have. Sadly, these are mostly types of common sense. The lack thereof is the real issue, not ones experience level. Don't be a dumbass, and you'll probably get out just fine aka: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The other real issue is people not knowing when to suck it up and retreat. Knowing your limits and when to call it quits is more important even than being prepared. One can be a dumbass or unprepared up to a certain point; but beyond that point, there are very real consequences. Knowing when to back out is, in some senses, even more important than being prepared.

kirse 4y ago
the vast majority of people are unable to handle themselves in nature Thing is eventually everyone gets spanked by an unknown-unknown that reveals their unpreparedness in a specific area, you just pray God decides to give you a break. To add to your "summit fever" comment, if there's any general principles worth knowing it's 1) Remain Calm and 2) Adventure with others; if you choose not to, have a means of contacting them
petsfed 4y ago
>Sadly, these are mostly types of common sense. The lack thereof is the real issue, not ones experience level. I've spent a lot of time teaching rock climbing, and just about every aspect thereof. Something I saw again and again is that what I understood to be "common sense" was simply that which I had forgotten learning. Autobelay accidents are a really good illustration of this: the most important safety check is to confirm you're clipped to the lanyard by tugging on it, before you leave the ground. Verifying that your safety system works as expected is perhaps the most crucial of the safety practices taught in the basic belay class, and yet, noted guidebook author Rob Kelman had a pretty serious autobelay accident, after climbing for 40 some-odd years prior. He actually lectured me about how safety-minded he was, a year or two before that accident. I read about a rappel accident in Wyoming last year that would've been entirely prevented by backing up the rotten old rappel slings, and the victim never even mentioned checking said slings before trusting them. That's not an absence of "common sense", that's having too high an opinion of your own abilities. I've personally witnessed several climbing accidents, and the unifying factor was that the victims were people whose training and experience (in their minds at any rate) should have rendered them impervious to situations like what they had just landed in (frequently violently). If there's any "common sense" advice I would give to people, it is to not let your guard down in the wild. No amount of training or forethought will let you completely avoid these situations, do not think you are too smart to avoid a bad situation. That's what I got from the article, and it certainly rings true for me.
- broguinn 4y ago
  I've heard this referred to as the "safety bell curve" - when you're new to a sport or dangerous activity, you don't know what you're doing and are at elevated risk. The same is true for people who have been doing that same activity for 10+ years: they stop actively thinking about their safety, and fall victim to human fallibility. I don't know if there's one perfect solution for this phenomenon. Checklists and social reinforcement are the best I've found within the climbing community.
- wcarron 4y ago
  I catch your drift on the common sense is just forgotten learning. That's probably closer to the truth than we'd all like to be told. Thing is, I don't think you've contradicted me re: too much confidence in your abilities. It's basically like rolling Nat20s in Dungeons and Dragons. Eventually everyone runs into a situation they need to get out of, A.K.A 'roll to save' (I think that's the correct term). You can reduce to times you need to 'roll a nat 20' by improving your skills, knowledge, and gear. Or you can think of those things as removing sides from the die, making it more likely you can get a positive result. When you're accomplished and capable outdoors, though, whatever puts you on your ass is probably not just a paper cut. A higher ceiling of competence drags the floor of consequences up with it. Even more so than that though, the best way to stay safe is to not put yourself in situations where you need to "roll a nat 20" to save yourself or avoid something bad happening. I.e "don't let your guard down" is a preventative, and the saying goes 'something something an ounce of it...'

kirse 4y ago

the vast majority of people are unable to handle themselves in nature Thing is eventually everyone gets spanked by an unknown-unknown that reveals their unpreparedness in a specific area, you just pray God decides to give you a break. To add to your "summit fever" comment, if there's any general principles worth knowing it's 1) Remain Calm and 2) Adventure with others; if you choose not to, have a means of contacting them

petsfed 4y ago

>Sadly, these are mostly types of common sense. The lack thereof is the real issue, not ones experience level. I've spent a lot of time teaching rock climbing, and just about every aspect thereof. Something I saw again and again is that what I understood to be "common sense" was simply that which I had forgotten learning. Autobelay accidents are a really good illustration of this: the most important safety check is to confirm you're clipped to the lanyard by tugging on it, before you leave the ground. Verifying that your safety system works as expected is perhaps the most crucial of the safety practices taught in the basic belay class, and yet, noted guidebook author Rob Kelman had a pretty serious autobelay accident, after climbing for 40 some-odd years prior. He actually lectured me about how safety-minded he was, a year or two before that accident. I read about a rappel accident in Wyoming last year that would've been entirely prevented by backing up the rotten old rappel slings, and the victim never even mentioned checking said slings before trusting them. That's not an absence of "common sense", that's having too high an opinion of your own abilities. I've personally witnessed several climbing accidents, and the unifying factor was that the victims were people whose training and experience (in their minds at any rate) should have rendered them impervious to situations like what they had just landed in (frequently violently). If there's any "common sense" advice I would give to people, it is to not let your guard down in the wild. No amount of training or forethought will let you completely avoid these situations, do not think you are too smart to avoid a bad situation. That's what I got from the article, and it certainly rings true for me.

broguinn 4y ago
I've heard this referred to as the "safety bell curve" - when you're new to a sport or dangerous activity, you don't know what you're doing and are at elevated risk. The same is true for people who have been doing that same activity for 10+ years: they stop actively thinking about their safety, and fall victim to human fallibility. I don't know if there's one perfect solution for this phenomenon. Checklists and social reinforcement are the best I've found within the climbing community.
wcarron 4y ago
I catch your drift on the common sense is just forgotten learning. That's probably closer to the truth than we'd all like to be told. Thing is, I don't think you've contradicted me re: too much confidence in your abilities. It's basically like rolling Nat20s in Dungeons and Dragons. Eventually everyone runs into a situation they need to get out of, A.K.A 'roll to save' (I think that's the correct term). You can reduce to times you need to 'roll a nat 20' by improving your skills, knowledge, and gear. Or you can think of those things as removing sides from the die, making it more likely you can get a positive result. When you're accomplished and capable outdoors, though, whatever puts you on your ass is probably not just a paper cut. A higher ceiling of competence drags the floor of consequences up with it. Even more so than that though, the best way to stay safe is to not put yourself in situations where you need to "roll a nat 20" to save yourself or avoid something bad happening. I.e "don't let your guard down" is a preventative, and the saying goes 'something something an ounce of it...'