4 ms·

I don't understand how gamers (non-videogame gamers in this case) put up with ruthless monetization and lock-in attempts by the biggest companies. RPGs is a pa

by the_af 4y ago

I don't understand how gamers (non-videogame gamers in this case) put up with ruthless monetization and lock-in attempts by the biggest companies. RPGs is a particularly bizarre case. You really don't need anything but a group of friends, your imagination and some rules to play roleplaying games. Ok, so you want merchandise -- player screens and mats and minis -- all of that's optional, there's no RPG police that can prevent you making your own or buying from third parties. So you have adventure modules... I made my own adventures back when I was a teenager, but I can sort of see not everyone has the imagination to make their own, plus being able to "share" a world with other gaming groups so you can say you defeated the Temple of Elemental Evil or whatnot is sort of cool; not my thing, but I can see it. But now apparently Wizards of the Coast is not content with all the stuff they already sell, so they are starting to build a virtual world (+ app, of course) where you can customize your character, buy DLC, etc. Of course, all tidily locked-in, because what better way to keep a tight reign than owning the app? I can't wrap my head around this. An app? DLC? Custom items? For a game that happens inside your head, and that most people choose to play to do something other than staring at a screen? Has the world gone crazy? You only needed some friends, dice and an imagination...

remram 4y ago
This letter is proof they are not putting up with it. Or do you mean they should just stop playing DnD when WotC pulls this crap? > You only needed some friends, dice and an imagination Obviously you need rulebooks, campaign modules, etc. This is the stuff that is under license from WotC.
- the_af 4y ago
  Sorry, my rant was semi-related: I mean the upcoming digital D&D app that Wizards of the Coast expects players to use. Isn't it crazy that they expect to sell you DLC for online avatars for a game that happens in your imagination? > Obviously you need rulebooks Yes. > campaign modules Unlike the rulebook, these are nice but not mandatory. And if you're crafty, you can derive inspiration from other fantasy worlds, books, novels and movies. I do understand not everybody is creative enough or wants to spend time doing this though; I also understand some people value a "shared world" they can discuss with other players beyond their group. > Or do you mean they should just stop playing DnD when WotC pulls this crap? At some point, yes. I mean, there are plenty of other awesome RPGs to play, right? You are not locked-in to D&D in the same sense many people are locked-in to Windows.
  - SSLy 4y ago
    More than D&D itself, and its players, the new "OGL" creates tremendous hurdles for the 3rd party, admittedly a little cottage, industry that bloomed around OGL. I'm absolutely fine without D&D, but Hasbro is going against makers of Pathfinder, my preferred dungeon crawler RPG.
wincy 4y ago
Right so D&D has always been inspired from wargames, and combat and such occurs on a grid, with measurements and dice rolls. With the pandemic virtual tabletops blew up and Hasbro (let’s call them what they really are, one of the largest game companies in the world) wants a piece of this action, or maybe all the pieces for that matter. I play online using a virtual tabletop and while we often just use our imaginations, the VTT keeps track of our character sheets, our current equipment, our gold amounts, a log of all our dice rolls and what skill we were rolling. I used a 3D modeling program to make screenshots that I use as tokens for my character. Our DM runs multiple games and the virtual tabletop is also a note taking app that allows his notes to correspond to objects in the game, attached to certain places, or the entire campaign. Like a specialized Evernote. He couldn’t keep track of all the games he runs without it (or he could but it’d be harder). It makes things a lot easier than just logging onto a zoom call and playing pretend. All this convenience would be a lot more expensive if it was just through the one official source. I understand what they’re doing but it’s going to stifle the innovation that’s been happening in this space and finally get D&D to be a “video game” like they tried with 4th edition.
mcv 4y ago
Entirely true. However, Dungeons & Dragons is by far the biggest brand in the hobby. Bigger than the hobby itself, arguably. I'm pretty sure "Dungeons & Dragons" is better known than "Roleplaying Games". The brand is huge, it's the biggest thing that attracts new players, and WotC/Hasbro owns it. And they want to monetise it. Most experienced roleplayers who know that there's a world outside D&D won't put up with it, but to lots of new players flocking to the big name, having something computer/app based may actually help make it more familiar. They've never heard of Pathfinder, let alone Call of Cthulhu, Fate or Shadowrun, and they have no idea how to play it. That's what they're coming to D&D for: to learn how to play it. And if WotC/Hasbro is now going to tell them they need to pay to make their character in an online virtual world, they may never find what they were looking for.
- the_af 4y ago
  I suspect you are right, and it's depressing. I do think it's a bit easier to escape this trap, because an inventive game master can convince their group of friends to play something else, and this is easier than getting someone to switch from Windows. It's simply teaching them a new game!
- brendoelfrendo 4y ago
  Not only have many players never heard of these systems, unfortunately many don't want to learn them once they do. I like Pathfinder, and Call of Cthulhu, and Mouseguard, and Fate; unfortunately, my players have little interest in picking up a new set of rules so that we can do the same thing, maybe just a little differently or cheaper. And I get that! Learning the DnD rules to a point where you can roll up a character and take full advantage of the available actions and skills without a turn taking forever takes time. And once folks have done it once, they don't really care to do it again and again; that starts to feel like work, and this is supposed to be a game. For some, the tradeoffs aren't worth it. It is a little disappointing, though, seeing all this change on the horizon and knowing that I would lose more than half of my players if I tried to get us into a different rule system.
  - the_af 4y ago
thomastjeffery 4y ago
Some friends of mine started their own RPG decades ago. They have built up long branches of history/lore, star charts, a dozen or so species, several factions disputing territory, weapons, vehicles, armor classes, dozens of attributes per character, mysterious artifacts, magic, etc. and art to go along with most of it. It's the only RPG I have played more than a handful of times. RPGs are a labor of love, friendship, and fun: no more, no less.
- the_af 4y ago
  I love your reply, and fully agreed! I do understand that kind of involvement in the hobby is not for everyone. I'm not obtuse, I understand the appeal of ready-made fantasy worlds and adventures. But still...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
scubbo 4y ago
I agree with the broad thrust of your argument, but I cannot emphasize enough how useful DnDBeyond is for character creation, rule/item lookups, shared campaign content, etc. Sure, you don't _need_ it, but it makes the experience so much easier and more pleasant, allowing you to spend your time on the bits of the hobby you actually enjoy rather than trawling through reference books (if trawling through reference books _is_ the bit that you enjoy, you are free to keep doing that :) ) It's not useful _enough_ to make me want to keep using it in this new climate, but still - don't undermine your (very correct!) argument by under-valuing the non-DLC aspects of RPG apps.
legitster 4y ago
> For a game that happens inside your head, and that most people choose to play to do something other than staring at a screen? Has the world gone crazy? I think the thing that happened is that D&D transitioned from being a game to a lifestyle brand. It's not actually about playing a game anymore, it's about collecting books and buying swag and watching Youtube shows.

by the_af 4y ago

remram 4y ago

This letter is proof they are not putting up with it. Or do you mean they should just stop playing DnD when WotC pulls this crap? > You only needed some friends, dice and an imagination Obviously you need rulebooks, campaign modules, etc. This is the stuff that is under license from WotC.

the_af 4y ago
Sorry, my rant was semi-related: I mean the upcoming digital D&D app that Wizards of the Coast expects players to use. Isn't it crazy that they expect to sell you DLC for online avatars for a game that happens in your imagination? > Obviously you need rulebooks Yes. > campaign modules Unlike the rulebook, these are nice but not mandatory. And if you're crafty, you can derive inspiration from other fantasy worlds, books, novels and movies. I do understand not everybody is creative enough or wants to spend time doing this though; I also understand some people value a "shared world" they can discuss with other players beyond their group. > Or do you mean they should just stop playing DnD when WotC pulls this crap? At some point, yes. I mean, there are plenty of other awesome RPGs to play, right? You are not locked-in to D&D in the same sense many people are locked-in to Windows.
- SSLy 4y ago
  More than D&D itself, and its players, the new "OGL" creates tremendous hurdles for the 3rd party, admittedly a little cottage, industry that bloomed around OGL. I'm absolutely fine without D&D, but Hasbro is going against makers of Pathfinder, my preferred dungeon crawler RPG.

wincy 4y ago

Right so D&D has always been inspired from wargames, and combat and such occurs on a grid, with measurements and dice rolls. With the pandemic virtual tabletops blew up and Hasbro (let’s call them what they really are, one of the largest game companies in the world) wants a piece of this action, or maybe all the pieces for that matter. I play online using a virtual tabletop and while we often just use our imaginations, the VTT keeps track of our character sheets, our current equipment, our gold amounts, a log of all our dice rolls and what skill we were rolling. I used a 3D modeling program to make screenshots that I use as tokens for my character. Our DM runs multiple games and the virtual tabletop is also a note taking app that allows his notes to correspond to objects in the game, attached to certain places, or the entire campaign. Like a specialized Evernote. He couldn’t keep track of all the games he runs without it (or he could but it’d be harder). It makes things a lot easier than just logging onto a zoom call and playing pretend. All this convenience would be a lot more expensive if it was just through the one official source. I understand what they’re doing but it’s going to stifle the innovation that’s been happening in this space and finally get D&D to be a “video game” like they tried with 4th edition.

mcv 4y ago

Entirely true. However, Dungeons & Dragons is by far the biggest brand in the hobby. Bigger than the hobby itself, arguably. I'm pretty sure "Dungeons & Dragons" is better known than "Roleplaying Games". The brand is huge, it's the biggest thing that attracts new players, and WotC/Hasbro owns it. And they want to monetise it. Most experienced roleplayers who know that there's a world outside D&D won't put up with it, but to lots of new players flocking to the big name, having something computer/app based may actually help make it more familiar. They've never heard of Pathfinder, let alone Call of Cthulhu, Fate or Shadowrun, and they have no idea how to play it. That's what they're coming to D&D for: to learn how to play it. And if WotC/Hasbro is now going to tell them they need to pay to make their character in an online virtual world, they may never find what they were looking for.

the_af 4y ago
I suspect you are right, and it's depressing. I do think it's a bit easier to escape this trap, because an inventive game master can convince their group of friends to play something else, and this is easier than getting someone to switch from Windows. It's simply teaching them a new game!
brendoelfrendo 4y ago
Not only have many players never heard of these systems, unfortunately many don't want to learn them once they do. I like Pathfinder, and Call of Cthulhu, and Mouseguard, and Fate; unfortunately, my players have little interest in picking up a new set of rules so that we can do the same thing, maybe just a little differently or cheaper. And I get that! Learning the DnD rules to a point where you can roll up a character and take full advantage of the available actions and skills without a turn taking forever takes time. And once folks have done it once, they don't really care to do it again and again; that starts to feel like work, and this is supposed to be a game. For some, the tradeoffs aren't worth it. It is a little disappointing, though, seeing all this change on the horizon and knowing that I would lose more than half of my players if I tried to get us into a different rule system.
- the_af 4y ago

thomastjeffery 4y ago

Some friends of mine started their own RPG decades ago. They have built up long branches of history/lore, star charts, a dozen or so species, several factions disputing territory, weapons, vehicles, armor classes, dozens of attributes per character, mysterious artifacts, magic, etc. and art to go along with most of it. It's the only RPG I have played more than a handful of times. RPGs are a labor of love, friendship, and fun: no more, no less.

the_af 4y ago
I love your reply, and fully agreed! I do understand that kind of involvement in the hobby is not for everyone. I'm not obtuse, I understand the appeal of ready-made fantasy worlds and adventures. But still...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

scubbo 4y ago

I agree with the broad thrust of your argument, but I cannot emphasize enough how useful DnDBeyond is for character creation, rule/item lookups, shared campaign content, etc. Sure, you don't _need_ it, but it makes the experience so much easier and more pleasant, allowing you to spend your time on the bits of the hobby you actually enjoy rather than trawling through reference books (if trawling through reference books _is_ the bit that you enjoy, you are free to keep doing that :) ) It's not useful _enough_ to make me want to keep using it in this new climate, but still - don't undermine your (very correct!) argument by under-valuing the non-DLC aspects of RPG apps.

legitster 4y ago

> For a game that happens inside your head, and that most people choose to play to do something other than staring at a screen? Has the world gone crazy? I think the thing that happened is that D&D transitioned from being a game to a lifestyle brand. It's not actually about playing a game anymore, it's about collecting books and buying swag and watching Youtube shows.