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> Are hardware wallets that difficult and/or expensive? The entire thing is obscenely difficult and completely inscrutable for the average human. The number of

> Are hardware wallets that difficult and/or expensive? The entire thing is obscenely difficult and completely inscrutable for the average human. The number of ways a naïve participant can lose their entire balance is staggering. Even the notion of a hardware wallet is something that 90%+ of people holding cryptocurrencies will either never hear about, never understand, or never opt to use due to actual or perceived complexity. The average person is simply not qualified to hold onto substantial (to themselves) amounts of cryptocurrencies in any form. And as it turns out, all of the available evidence seems to indicate that most exchanges aren't qualified to do so either.

kkielhofner 4y ago
Nailed it. I’m waiting for the inevitable wave of social media posts, etc from all of the people who will lose access to their wallets, have them hacked somehow, etc. I’m sure centralized exchanges are already being flooded with customer support issues from people who don’t fully grasp what self-custody is and the risk it entails. Most people aren’t qualified or capable to build a fortress with medieval-castle or Fort Knox levels of security and process for their crypto wallets but that’s more equivalent than not of what’s required to properly secure them and maintain access over time. The general population hasn’t experienced “you’re completely on your own” for nearly anything in at least a couple of generations - and for good reason because it’s absurd.
- thedaly 4y ago
  I gave my brother a Trezor and with approximately $1.5k USD worth of bitcoin on it as repayment for money he lent me. I'm fairly certain he hasn't touched it and has lost the pin/seed. I think I have his seed written down somewhere, I certainly gave him a written copy when I gave him the trezor, but if I can't find it his BTC will be lost.
  - halkony 4y ago
    I'm not super into crypto, but could you theoretically brute force a hardware wallet if you had enough computing power in the year 20XX?
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      No. Most of these systems use enough "bits" in the key or whatever that brute forcing it would basically require hiring the entirety of AWS for a hundred years and also winning the lottery in terms of luck. Raw number crunching power of silicon would need to double like 5 to 10 times before it's even a thought in the NSAs mind, and I am in the camp of that never happening. There will never be enough computing power for cheap enough to crack a wallet holding $1500 in bitcoin, unless quantum computing literally magics up a solution, which might never happen, even in theory.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      There are 2 things you can brute-force: 1) the seed for the private key - this is infeasible to brute-force just like you can't brute-force a private key directly 2) the authentication credential to the hardware wallet - the key space is small enough that brute forcing it would normally be easy, except the whole purpose of a hardware wallet is to limit the amount of attempts. The former option is infeasible, the latter has a slim chance if some vulnerability in the hardware wallet was discovered in the future.
    - netfortius 4y ago
      An interesting evolution in this space would be when hackers will find a way to "inject" malicious code in the images being installed on the hardware wallets, at the source. Getting access to production networks and/or private github/other version control internal systems, associated with these devices, may prove to be easier than attempting to brute-force keys.
danans 4y ago
> The entire thing is obscenely difficult and completely inscrutable for the average human. For a particular kind of perspective (which I don't subscribe to), that could almost be seen as a feature rather than a bug. The scenario is the one cryptocurrency has actually replaced fiat currencies but the only people who can secure their assets are those with the sophistication and power (basically, weapons and private armies) to maintain the required opsec. And then we've basically recreated golden treasure hordes and the warlords who own them.
otikik 4y ago
Agree with everything. I will only add that all that complexity is there by design. The design wants to get you to feel like you understand it without you truly understanding it.
chunkychili 4y ago
Not "obscenely difficult and completely inscrutable". This is a massive exaggeration. Hardware wallets are on par with changing a car tire, filing a tax return, installing an operation system or navigating a foreign subway. Any competent person who can follow directions will be fine. Think higher of your fellow man.
- arlcode 4y ago
  I don't think that covers the full extent of it. In addition to opsec and "daily usage" there is a dimension of physical safety that requires people to keep the wallet and the seed safe in different places. In the worst case of a fire or a flood you don't want to discover that all your life savings are gone as well because you stored them together. Physical security of valuable, small and fragile items is a proven hard problem for regular people. It's one of the reasons banks were created.

kkielhofner 4y ago

Nailed it. I’m waiting for the inevitable wave of social media posts, etc from all of the people who will lose access to their wallets, have them hacked somehow, etc. I’m sure centralized exchanges are already being flooded with customer support issues from people who don’t fully grasp what self-custody is and the risk it entails. Most people aren’t qualified or capable to build a fortress with medieval-castle or Fort Knox levels of security and process for their crypto wallets but that’s more equivalent than not of what’s required to properly secure them and maintain access over time. The general population hasn’t experienced “you’re completely on your own” for nearly anything in at least a couple of generations - and for good reason because it’s absurd.

thedaly 4y ago
I gave my brother a Trezor and with approximately $1.5k USD worth of bitcoin on it as repayment for money he lent me. I'm fairly certain he hasn't touched it and has lost the pin/seed. I think I have his seed written down somewhere, I certainly gave him a written copy when I gave him the trezor, but if I can't find it his BTC will be lost.
- halkony 4y ago
  I'm not super into crypto, but could you theoretically brute force a hardware wallet if you had enough computing power in the year 20XX?
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    No. Most of these systems use enough "bits" in the key or whatever that brute forcing it would basically require hiring the entirety of AWS for a hundred years and also winning the lottery in terms of luck. Raw number crunching power of silicon would need to double like 5 to 10 times before it's even a thought in the NSAs mind, and I am in the camp of that never happening. There will never be enough computing power for cheap enough to crack a wallet holding $1500 in bitcoin, unless quantum computing literally magics up a solution, which might never happen, even in theory.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    There are 2 things you can brute-force: 1) the seed for the private key - this is infeasible to brute-force just like you can't brute-force a private key directly 2) the authentication credential to the hardware wallet - the key space is small enough that brute forcing it would normally be easy, except the whole purpose of a hardware wallet is to limit the amount of attempts. The former option is infeasible, the latter has a slim chance if some vulnerability in the hardware wallet was discovered in the future.
  - netfortius 4y ago
    An interesting evolution in this space would be when hackers will find a way to "inject" malicious code in the images being installed on the hardware wallets, at the source. Getting access to production networks and/or private github/other version control internal systems, associated with these devices, may prove to be easier than attempting to brute-force keys.

danans 4y ago

> The entire thing is obscenely difficult and completely inscrutable for the average human. For a particular kind of perspective (which I don't subscribe to), that could almost be seen as a feature rather than a bug. The scenario is the one cryptocurrency has actually replaced fiat currencies but the only people who can secure their assets are those with the sophistication and power (basically, weapons and private armies) to maintain the required opsec. And then we've basically recreated golden treasure hordes and the warlords who own them.

otikik 4y ago

Agree with everything. I will only add that all that complexity is there by design. The design wants to get you to feel like you understand it without you truly understanding it.

chunkychili 4y ago

Not "obscenely difficult and completely inscrutable". This is a massive exaggeration. Hardware wallets are on par with changing a car tire, filing a tax return, installing an operation system or navigating a foreign subway. Any competent person who can follow directions will be fine. Think higher of your fellow man.

arlcode 4y ago
I don't think that covers the full extent of it. In addition to opsec and "daily usage" there is a dimension of physical safety that requires people to keep the wallet and the seed safe in different places. In the worst case of a fire or a flood you don't want to discover that all your life savings are gone as well because you stored them together. Physical security of valuable, small and fragile items is a proven hard problem for regular people. It's one of the reasons banks were created.