4 ms·

I think it's important to note poor planning, unawareness, and frankly stupid, naive, or ignorant decisions can make nearly any environment or activity dangerou

I think it's important to note poor planning, unawareness, and frankly stupid, naive, or ignorant decisions can make nearly any environment or activity dangerous. As an example I once got in a car with people I'd just met. After driving a few blocks one of them held a gun to my head. The driver then drove us out to the middle of nowhere... I was convinced I was going to be killed. I couldn't say how long the drive was but it felt like hours. They "just" robbed me and left me there. Frankly, dealing with the police after this was just as traumatizing as the initial experience - after I described the perpetrators (yes, including race) and the overall situation they assumed it was a drug deal gone bad (even though I've never had anything to do with drugs) and more or less dismissed me. They actually took it a step further and started mocking me. Essentially, they heard the race of the suspects and assumed I was initially in that situation because of something criminal (I'm white). It was awful. I was pretty traumatized for a while but in the years since I'm much more aware of my surroundings at all times. I certainly don't trust people I don't know well and put myself in situations even remotely similar to that. I definitely have some PTSD but it doesn't impact my life much on a daily basis. In telling this story people frequently respond with "that was stupid". I can't say I disagree but it's also been eye-opening to observe a lot of casual and overt racism in response. Point being, I essentially "victim blame" myself to some extent. I don't know if that's psychologically good or bad but what I do know is factoring everything in the chances of anything like that ever happening to me again are much lower. I'm not an outdoors type person but I imagine that (as the article describes) similar factors can easily and rapidly assemble to lead to more-or-less near death experiences.

nsxwolf 4y ago
I've always found the way the term "victim blaming" is usually used to be unhelpful. For example when you recommend someone lock their doors, someone might object and accuse you of victim blaming - because you have the right to leave your door unlocked and not be victimized. You may have that right in a perfectly just world, but in this world people don't respect that right, so it's good to protect yourself.
- fennecfoxy 4y ago
  Eh I think there's balance. On one hand I do certain things like cross the road or not go to certain areas at certain times, things we shouldn't _have_ to do. And I think the victim blaming thing is less "you didn't follow common sense" and more "this happened to you because you asked for it". It basically boils down to: yes, people should follow common sense, but it's not their fault that bad people are out there - it's all of our faults in society, and we should get better at figuring out how to prevent these things happening at all. Ie rather than just dismissing an area as a "bad place to go at night", we should probably try to address why it is so, and fix it.
P_I_Staker 4y ago
Victim blaming does NOT just happen with SA cases. I know someone that was mugged in a small town. When he reported to the police it was recommended for him not to file an official report, because they would be forced to arrest him for underage drinking. P.S. Arrest doesn't mean taken away in cuffs, so it was probably gonna be a ticket. Still, this is utterly ridiculous.
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  It's interesting you mention SA cases. I'm not proud to admit it but prior to this experience I was firmly in the camp of "Of COURSE you report it, go to the police, testify, etc". In my incident even though the responding officers were terrible, racist, victim blaming, etc they filed what I'm sure was a mandatory report. I received a call (voicemail) from a detective about a week later. I was still having nightmares and pretty messed up at that point. I never even called them back - I just wanted to move on and after the initial experience with the police I didn't even want to think about how much worse it could get. I felt (and still feel) very violated and a bit traumatized by the experience. I can't even remotely imagine how much more violated I would feel if it was a SA. The most positive outcome of this experience was the 180 in my understanding of these types of violations and the empathy I acquired. Again, I'm not proud to admit it and I'm still a little bothered it took something happening to me personally to better understand this. While we're on the topic of empathy I also better understand poverty. The perpetrators of this incident risked kidnapping, armed robbery, who knows what charges with what I'm sure would be considerable amounts of jail time - for the $100 I had in my pocket and $100 (or whatever) they got from selling my locked iPhone to part out (after being marked stolen with iCloud it pinged once several months later - from China IIRC). I couldn't imagine risking going to jail for $100,000 let alone $100. Poverty and life circumstances create a level of desperation I can't fathom.
  - P_I_Staker 4y ago
    It's worth pointing out that many people go through these experiences and never do anything like that. There's homeless drug addicts that would commit crimes, but never hold someone up at gunpoint... maybe break into a house and run away when there's an intruder, and feel very guilty. At risk of sounding like a conservative (I don't consider myself one), greed, as well as a culture of violence, and wanting to be tough come into play. Lots of working stiffs out there, predominately POCs (due to inequality), will simply work the shit job and roll with the punches... as I understand, these people often suffer more than anyone, because despite keeping it on the straight an narrow, they are usually the most likely to be victimized. That said, I see it this way: some people are predisposed to crime. Think of it like a genetic thing (in some cases probably it is). Under harsh conditions these people are far more likely to turn to extremism, and crime. You kinda had it figured out. What was the point of going through all that for $100? It probably isn't even the best risk / reward ratio... some people just don't want to do "sneak crimes". Go to a prison and I bet some of the inmates say it themselves. That said, the reality of living in a world stacked against you weighs on people, and working degrading jobs and dealing with bigotry must be exhausting and infuriating. To some the extreme fridges of society, and violence, feel more dignifying than playing a rigged game, and being insulted all along the way.
shortstuffsushi 4y ago
If you don't mind sharing, what was the reason to get in the car with them to drive? Were you planning to head out to an event like a hike or something that you had arranged online, but hadn't known the people ahead of?
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  I wish it was anywhere near that "respectable". I was visiting a college town for an away football game. This was the night before the game and some of my friends and I went out. I met these two guys at a college bar my friends and I went to. My friends were going back to our hotel but these guys (who we had all met maybe an hour before) had invited me to a party. It was still fairly early and I thought "Neat, this will be a different and interesting experience". Unfortunately it was - much more than I had imagined. It's likely that if the circumstances were closer to what you've described the police would have taken me more seriously. I should also probably add that this was in a period of my life where I was unknowingly experiencing untreated bipolar disorder. If you're not familiar with manic or even hypomanic episodes your risk assessment can be very warped. That was a large component of this situation.
  - wccrawford 4y ago
    I'm a pretty big introvert, and even I would probably have at least considered going with them to a party. And one of my reasons would not have been "they might try to rob me". So I think you're putting far too much blame on yourself.
  - shortstuffsushi 4y ago
    I guess in the scheme of "things that happen in a college town," being invited to another party from a public bar with people you just met there doesn't seem like a particularly unusual thing to take part in either. It being a college town, and stemming from a bar, does seem like it may have aided in the inappropriate response from the police, unfortunately. I wonder how many college kids end up in a similar situation, where in most cases the police likely won't even be able to do anything to follow up. A friend's brother had a similar experience, having been approached at a gas station for help and ultimately being beaten up and mugged. Aside from also being treated like a drug addict (which he was, to be fair), he was told they they couldn't/wouldn't do anything about it anyway since they had no way of knowing the people involved.

nsxwolf 4y ago

I've always found the way the term "victim blaming" is usually used to be unhelpful. For example when you recommend someone lock their doors, someone might object and accuse you of victim blaming - because you have the right to leave your door unlocked and not be victimized. You may have that right in a perfectly just world, but in this world people don't respect that right, so it's good to protect yourself.

fennecfoxy 4y ago
Eh I think there's balance. On one hand I do certain things like cross the road or not go to certain areas at certain times, things we shouldn't _have_ to do. And I think the victim blaming thing is less "you didn't follow common sense" and more "this happened to you because you asked for it". It basically boils down to: yes, people should follow common sense, but it's not their fault that bad people are out there - it's all of our faults in society, and we should get better at figuring out how to prevent these things happening at all. Ie rather than just dismissing an area as a "bad place to go at night", we should probably try to address why it is so, and fix it.

P_I_Staker 4y ago

Victim blaming does NOT just happen with SA cases. I know someone that was mugged in a small town. When he reported to the police it was recommended for him not to file an official report, because they would be forced to arrest him for underage drinking. P.S. Arrest doesn't mean taken away in cuffs, so it was probably gonna be a ticket. Still, this is utterly ridiculous.

kkielhofner 4y ago
It's interesting you mention SA cases. I'm not proud to admit it but prior to this experience I was firmly in the camp of "Of COURSE you report it, go to the police, testify, etc". In my incident even though the responding officers were terrible, racist, victim blaming, etc they filed what I'm sure was a mandatory report. I received a call (voicemail) from a detective about a week later. I was still having nightmares and pretty messed up at that point. I never even called them back - I just wanted to move on and after the initial experience with the police I didn't even want to think about how much worse it could get. I felt (and still feel) very violated and a bit traumatized by the experience. I can't even remotely imagine how much more violated I would feel if it was a SA. The most positive outcome of this experience was the 180 in my understanding of these types of violations and the empathy I acquired. Again, I'm not proud to admit it and I'm still a little bothered it took something happening to me personally to better understand this. While we're on the topic of empathy I also better understand poverty. The perpetrators of this incident risked kidnapping, armed robbery, who knows what charges with what I'm sure would be considerable amounts of jail time - for the $100 I had in my pocket and $100 (or whatever) they got from selling my locked iPhone to part out (after being marked stolen with iCloud it pinged once several months later - from China IIRC). I couldn't imagine risking going to jail for $100,000 let alone $100. Poverty and life circumstances create a level of desperation I can't fathom.
- P_I_Staker 4y ago
  It's worth pointing out that many people go through these experiences and never do anything like that. There's homeless drug addicts that would commit crimes, but never hold someone up at gunpoint... maybe break into a house and run away when there's an intruder, and feel very guilty. At risk of sounding like a conservative (I don't consider myself one), greed, as well as a culture of violence, and wanting to be tough come into play. Lots of working stiffs out there, predominately POCs (due to inequality), will simply work the shit job and roll with the punches... as I understand, these people often suffer more than anyone, because despite keeping it on the straight an narrow, they are usually the most likely to be victimized. That said, I see it this way: some people are predisposed to crime. Think of it like a genetic thing (in some cases probably it is). Under harsh conditions these people are far more likely to turn to extremism, and crime. You kinda had it figured out. What was the point of going through all that for $100? It probably isn't even the best risk / reward ratio... some people just don't want to do "sneak crimes". Go to a prison and I bet some of the inmates say it themselves. That said, the reality of living in a world stacked against you weighs on people, and working degrading jobs and dealing with bigotry must be exhausting and infuriating. To some the extreme fridges of society, and violence, feel more dignifying than playing a rigged game, and being insulted all along the way.

shortstuffsushi 4y ago

If you don't mind sharing, what was the reason to get in the car with them to drive? Were you planning to head out to an event like a hike or something that you had arranged online, but hadn't known the people ahead of?

kkielhofner 4y ago
I wish it was anywhere near that "respectable". I was visiting a college town for an away football game. This was the night before the game and some of my friends and I went out. I met these two guys at a college bar my friends and I went to. My friends were going back to our hotel but these guys (who we had all met maybe an hour before) had invited me to a party. It was still fairly early and I thought "Neat, this will be a different and interesting experience". Unfortunately it was - much more than I had imagined. It's likely that if the circumstances were closer to what you've described the police would have taken me more seriously. I should also probably add that this was in a period of my life where I was unknowingly experiencing untreated bipolar disorder. If you're not familiar with manic or even hypomanic episodes your risk assessment can be very warped. That was a large component of this situation.
- wccrawford 4y ago
  I'm a pretty big introvert, and even I would probably have at least considered going with them to a party. And one of my reasons would not have been "they might try to rob me". So I think you're putting far too much blame on yourself.
- shortstuffsushi 4y ago
  I guess in the scheme of "things that happen in a college town," being invited to another party from a public bar with people you just met there doesn't seem like a particularly unusual thing to take part in either. It being a college town, and stemming from a bar, does seem like it may have aided in the inappropriate response from the police, unfortunately. I wonder how many college kids end up in a similar situation, where in most cases the police likely won't even be able to do anything to follow up. A friend's brother had a similar experience, having been approached at a gas station for help and ultimately being beaten up and mugged. Aside from also being treated like a drug addict (which he was, to be fair), he was told they they couldn't/wouldn't do anything about it anyway since they had no way of knowing the people involved.