6 ms·

The pipe organ is surely one of the most majestic & grand instruments, and I long for the day its most frequent use won't be drab church hymns. It's capable of

The pipe organ is surely one of the most majestic & grand instruments, and I long for the day its most frequent use won't be drab church hymns. It's capable of so much more. It's also difficult to get exposure to. You've basically got make friends with a church music director to let you play theirs. That's not easy, especially as a queer self-taught musician—no religion, no music degree won't get you too far. It's a self-reinforcing negative feedback loop that gatekeeps its wider use. (Yes, sample libraries work, but they're just intermediate representations of a full console with multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers, reverberant room, etc.)

rwmj 4y ago
The sound track of Interstellar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_(soundtrack) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_(soundtrack)
- cptcobalt 4y ago
  Basically, the exception which proves the rule. I sincerely doubt most folks could name other titles which prominently feature organ as a focal instrument in a work. There's more, of course, but Interstellar tends to be people's first example.
  - rwmj 4y ago
    Quite a few according to this list: https://www.hirten.com/the-pipe-organ-on-film/ https://www.hirten.com/the-pipe-organ-on-film/ The Abominable Dr. Phibes is an absolute classic.
  - adql 4y ago
    * Warhammer 40k Mechanicus OST - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsX9WUdYnU&list=PLnSG0OA5vYnTLQ77f5EmLoW52vIX5jAAK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsX9WUdYnU&list=PLnSG0OA5vY... * A bit on that on IXION one by same author https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTXyUERugQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTXyUERugQ althought more on synth side Also kinda many tracks by organ's tiny brother, hammond/tonehweel organs seen plenty of use for the obvious reason of being portable.
  - tzs 4y ago
    Theme from Rollerball [1]? [1] Yes, I know it is Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, but cptcobalt said "name" not "recognize", and while a vast majority have probably heard Toccata and Fugue in D Minor I'd guess most of them don't know that is its name. They will name it after somewhere they heard it used. Similar to Strauss' Also sprach Zarathustra. Everyone has heard it but I bet most people would name it as the theme from 2001: A Space Odyssey.
  - wl 4y ago
    Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 https://youtu.be/eW-7S9fjyfU?t=33 https://youtu.be/eW-7S9fjyfU?t=33
  - tgv 4y ago
    Well, if you like classical music ... there are some organ concertos. There's e.g. a modern-ish one by Poulenc (but melodic, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFsBNAmCd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFsBNAmCd0), and a romantic one by Saint-Saens (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GrO47WJKTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GrO47WJKTI), and there are baroque organ concertos by Handel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNUsN0Kh3A&list=OLAK5uy_k1uG2eAAArt43lTUMjxdMX4oD1Z2zAMk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNUsN0Kh3A&list=OLAK5uy_k1u...).
  - ginko 4y ago
    There's of course In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfpn3wHoNGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfpn3wHoNGA Plenty of other stuff if you look for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKVJt39mFUA&list=OLAK5uy_mTEMbywwK9gpqJ0-t2ra4WIzd8Ot3YLog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKVJt39mFUA&list=OLAK5uy_mTE... Not to mention the tons and tons of secular Classical music, particular from the Baroque era like Händel's organ concertos.
    - recursive 4y ago
      In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida definitely doesn't have a pipe organ. It's a vox or farfisa.
      - toast0 4y ago
        Sounds pretty nice on a church organ though; in high school, I played in the orchestra for honors district graduation at the Crystal Cathedral[1], and the organist would play some riffs during rehearsal. [1] Now renamed as the Christ Cathedral, I assume it's still amazingly hot and stuffy when the sun comes out, ugh, what a terrible venue. :P
      - fipar 4y ago
        Yup, it seems that was a Vox Continental: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Continental https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Continental
  - _a_a_a_ 4y ago
    Rollerball.
  - booknotefinder 4y ago
    Kali Malone’s “The Sacrificial Code” is my favorite musical find of the last year, and is entirely on pipe organ. Very mysterious and meditative. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpZqFa0Qiro https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpZqFa0Qiro For a midcentury, modal, classical bent, I love the music of Rayner Brown, who was a church organist in Pasadena. Recordings are rare but worth it to track down. There are a few good examples on YouTube; here’s one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xL8p-MuwzDY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xL8p-MuwzDY In that same vein, Leo Sowerby: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9O55UTNhHk4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9O55UTNhHk4
  - jgraham 4y ago
    Anna von Hausswolff [1] performs "pop" music on the organ. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_von_Hausswolff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_von_Hausswolff
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      On that note: Barbara Dennerlein.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    I think that's just because it is recent. But there is plenty more.
  - balfirevic 4y ago
    > Basically, the exception which proves the rule. Exception can only weaken the rule, although it might still statistically hold well enough to be called a rule.
PathOfEclipse 4y ago
As an amateur pianist trying to learn organ specifically to play "drab" church hymns, I can say that while I admire the complexity and scope of the organ, At the same time, I don't find the organ particularly interesting musically. I just don't think it "sounds" great. I think this explains the lack of popularity of organ more than anything else. In my free time, I would much rather listen to piano music than organ music. I remember even recently finding a new pianist I liked who also played the organ, and I simply didn't like his organ tracks. > You've basically got make friends with a church music director to let you play theirs No one is stopping you or any other secular organization from building your own organs. It seems weird to complain that churches were the only organizations willing to spend the money to build and maintain organs. If anything, you should be grateful they invested the resources in the first place. Without these churches, is it not possible the organ would be virtually extinct at this point?
- IanCal 4y ago
  > No one is stopping you or any other secular organization from building your own organs. It seems weird to complain that churches were the only organizations willing to spend the money to build and maintain organs. If anything, you should be grateful they invested the resources in the first place. Without these churches, is it not possible the organ would be virtually extinct at this point? I think its reasonable to be both happy these things exist at all, and are available to some for free rather than in extremely expensive private collections, while also lamenting the long history of exclusionary practices of the places these things exist. We can easily take this to an extreme as an analogy where it would seem more reasonable to you to hear the complaint. The world isn't perfect, and as strong as the desire is to reduce things to a "good" or a "bad" the real world comes with confusing good and bad points that we don't have to average out into a final score.
  - PathOfEclipse 4y ago
    > While also lamenting the long history of exclusionary practices of the places these things exist. Can you go into more detail as to these exclusionary practices? All organizations, all things really, are defined by both what they include and what they exclude. Nothing is fully inclusive, else that thing would have no meaning! To be more concrete, How, were churches more exclusionary than other private or civic organizations of their times? When we judge the history of something, we really need to judge it in proper context, including by comparing to the society at large within the same time frame. On the whole, Christianity can be argued to be one of the most inclusive religions ever. It would have to be, else it couldn't have spread across the world like it did! > The world isn't perfect, and as strong as the desire is to reduce things to a "good" or a "bad" the real world comes with confusing good and bad points that we don't have to average out into a final score. I'm not sure what this sentence is supposed to be conveying, really. It's point is far too banal to be a nugget of wisdom. It's more like a clump of dirt of wisdom! The world isn't perfect? Thanks for the reminder! But we all have a choice as to how we interpret our world, and I'm suggesting that the primary emotion or feeling an organist should have towards churches is one of gratitude, at least while we're staying on topic and talking about organs.
adql 4y ago
> It's a self-reinforcing negative feedback loop that gatekeeps its wider use. I'm pretty sure there is no loop here, just "you need that much money to play". Not exactly something easy to fit in the house either > (Yes, sample libraries work, but they're just intermediate representations of a full console with multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers, reverberant room, etc.) From what I heard simulated ones get pretty close
bluGill 4y ago
There is a small group of people who have built their own console with "multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers". I've been meaning to do that myself, but time is lacking. With software and good speakers you can probably get the reverberant room as well, though to my knowledge this hasn't been done yet.
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  Yeah, it really does seem like you can bodge something like this together with reasonable fidelity out of off the shelf stuff, starting with 3-4 synthesizer keyboards and a few pedals. Of course, that's no small expense right there already, and I'm sure this is one of those things that can get arbitrarily expensive as well, depending on that level of fidelity you're after.
- squidbot 4y ago
  There's a lot of people using Hauptwerk (virtual organ) for this and assembling their own consoles. Here is an organist on YouTube who shows his whole build process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UtzLlfwJ5w&list=PLUL_VC1ItBk8xIGaCCGCqtnVeouEXYG-D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UtzLlfwJ5w&list=PLUL_VC1ItB...
mh7 4y ago
I don't see a way around that - Organs are inherently rare because of their size, cost, locations and maintenance requirements. Unless someone finds a way of scaling up production and/or reducing the cost, you're not gonna see organs popping up everywhere, hence limited access.
jfk13 4y ago
This being Hacker News, you could consider Knuth's approach: have one built for your home. https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/organ.html https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/organ.html
- dang 4y ago
  Alan Kay too I think! "Play it grand"
- mustacheemperor 4y ago
  Or the similar approach of the guy from This Museum is Not Obsolete, buy an entire Church organ secondhand and retrofit it into your home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGr3J_LZaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGr3J_LZaE
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    That's another level entirely :) Wow...
darreninthenet 4y ago
I don't want to be "that guy" but a mate of mine is the music director is in his local church here in the UK, plays the organ and piano, is mostly self taught and is also gay... he's even going to be teaching me to play the organ later on this year (and I'm joining his choir for a bit of fun... he also knows I'm not religious at all and in his own words "faith is not a requirement") All I'm saying is you just need to find the right church and person... most people will happily share their passions with equally passionate beginners, and churches are crying out for organ players, they are a dying breed.
- tigerlily 4y ago
  It's not even weird and I'm on the other side of the world. I know at least one gay organist in my town, and over half my local church choir are unbelievers. Most do it for the repertoire and keeping their pipes in good nick for their real passion: musical theatre.
  - conductr 4y ago
    Also here to say "queer self-taught musician" describes every church music director I've ever known (3)
    - thinkmcfly 4y ago
      I'm not gonna brush off the idea that it's tough as a gay person or someone who thinks gay people have the right to exist to get in with a crowd that often thinks lgtbq people deserve to die
- jtbayly 4y ago
  Gay organists are common enough to be a trope.
allthetime 4y ago
In a way, the entire room is the instrument. How cool is that.
tgv 4y ago
I've got a second hand organ (trademark "Content", but there are more) at home with two manuals and (almost full) pedal. They're not expensive. There are three and four manual versions too. More than good enough to learn and practice. And no mistake: professional organists use these too, since practicing at a real organ is hard for them, too. Many (smaller) churches use similar organs instead of pipe organs, because of the economics. > they're just intermediate representations of a full console with multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers, reverberant room They're near perfect recordings with all the features, e.g. https://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/organs/netherlands/rotterdam-laurenskerk-main-organ.html https://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/organs/netherlands/rotterdam... If you want to hear what people play on their home setup: https://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/front https://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/front
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
temporarara 4y ago
Hey, just contact your local church music director. You don't even have to become close friends, just explain politely that you would be super grateful to have access to organs. Most of the time things can be arranged if you or the music director aren't obnoxius persons. Being a queer or self-taught musician with no degree is of no interest for anyone involved in this kind of arrangement. I'd assume not being a member of the said church is the biggest obstacle you can reasonably have here, and it can be non-issue too, especially if you are not hoping to instantly gain regular access. Don't be an ass about your lack of religion and hope that they are not an ass about having a religion. I know a few music directors in churches and they are definitely not very religious and it's mostly just a job for them and they are always eager to talk about organs to everyone interested, of course things vary a lot. One must also understand that giving access to expensive instrument that isn't even their own like organs (especially unsupervised) requires high trust and sometimes it's just too much to ask even if you are a lifelong member of the said church. But asking is cheap, don't hesitate to contact your local church music director(s) if you are seriously interested.
GeompMankle 4y ago
If you are in the states and having trouble getting access to church organs, find your local theatre organ club or ATOS chapter. Most of them have some form of access to theatre pipe organs and if you learn on a theatre organ you will be able to transition to a less diverse and more refined beast like a church instrument. It also helps to not be in a high cost of living area. The lower the cost of living, the lower the cost of auditorium space. The lower the cost of auditorium space, the easier it is to get access to organs (to a point).
jacquesm 4y ago
Have a look at the high end electronic organs, they are pretty good (and also pretty expensive, but still a small fraction of what the real thing would cost). Mixtuur, Johannus, van der Poel and quite a few others will give you the opportunity to play and practice to your hearts content and typically a 50 euro donation to the church will get you a 1/2 hour (sometimes more) to play on the real thing if and when you feel you are ready for that (and if you're really good they might get you to become their stand-in organist). On the cheap end: you can build your own, which is what I did, I converted a really old analogue organ that I bought for next to nothing into a sample based organ running Grand Orgue, it's not quite Hauptwerk but it is very good and sounds amazing, much more organ than I'm worthy of. Total cost: about 500 euros.
martinjacobd 4y ago
If you're in the US, you may want to try to find an episcopal church. They seem to be liturgically conservative enough to still have organs but are generally socially liberal enough to be more accepting. Ymmv, obviously. But I will say that personally in years of playing the organ and asking random churches (including conservative ones) if I could borrow their organs on a quiet weekday, my bisexuality has never come up. And I didn't have to be friends with the choir director either. Once, I attended one Mass and just went up to him afterwards to thank him for playing (it was beautiful) and ask if I could ever practice with it. I know it's different from many places as I'm in a big city, but at least four organists whom I've known personally are gay. Many churches don't even require you to be religious even to be employed to play the organ there. Randomly on an airplane, I spoke with an atheist music professor who was choir director/organist at a congregationalist church. They didn't seem to care. So I doubt it'd be a big deal if you just want to practice. The choir director at my current (liberal) parish never takes Communion--I don't know if he is personally religious one way or the other, but it seems to be little more than a job to him. Also, you should try to find some churches where there is more than just "drab church hymns." 20th and even 21st century voluntaries, anthems, and choral preludes are alive and well in certain segments of Christendom. See for instance the churches that Bálint Karosi plays in. I doubt you'd describe his music as "drab." My parish runs the gamut from Palestrina to something from the 20th century at least every Sunday. Just my 2 cents.
- AlexTWithBeard 4y ago
  I once asked a church choir director: how many people in a typical choir do really believe in god. His answer was: zero. As for the priest - he said - it's more like a coin flip: some of them are still religious.
  - jacobmartin 4y ago
    Triply so if the choir is a professional choir. It's a job. They don't ask you the Creed before you audition.
DontchaKnowit 4y ago
I mean I wouldnt look at this like organs are somehow gatekept : theyre just fucking expensive so you have to get in with the institutions that own them to be able to play em.
topaz0 4y ago
Calling the organ rep "drab church hymns" is an unfortunately common misunderstanding. Both because the hymns can be beautiful and varied (both in compositional and performance style -- registration, improvised counterpoint, etc), and because there is a lot more beyond hymns: hundreds of years worth of preludes and fugues, toccatas, concerti, organ symphonies, and various other forms. Most of the placed I've lived, I've been able to find a nearby church that does a (secular) concert/recital series that often features the organ. Try finding one of those if you are interested. As for getting access to an instrument, I second others who have replied to you: many of the organists I've encountered were queer in some way or other (though mostly gay men by far), and the rest of them were well aware and understanding that many of their peers and teachers were gay. I think if you reach out to a church organist they will likely be understanding and helpful.
sambapa 4y ago
There is this thing called "Organteq". It's made by mad scientists (well, mathematicians and engineers) from France and is based on physical modelling. Look it up, it's great!
- elihu 4y ago
  Also Hauptwerk, or if you prefer something open source there's GrandOrgue https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Oh super I did not realize they have a linux version of Organteq, I will definitely have to try that. I've used Grand Orgue so far and that works quite well, but I am a very happy user of Pianoteq (you can guess what that does) and Modartt has definitely raised the bar there, so I'm curious what they can do with Organs (arguably: easier to model in theory but probably a lot harder in practice).
dylan604 4y ago
You mean like the best use I've seen being from the Simpsons? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDC1w1ydLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDC1w1ydLI
noyoudumbdolt 4y ago
I bet half the organists at Catholic churches are gay.

rwmj 4y ago

The sound track of Interstellar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_(soundtrack) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_(soundtrack)

cptcobalt 4y ago
Basically, the exception which proves the rule. I sincerely doubt most folks could name other titles which prominently feature organ as a focal instrument in a work. There's more, of course, but Interstellar tends to be people's first example.
- rwmj 4y ago
  Quite a few according to this list: https://www.hirten.com/the-pipe-organ-on-film/ https://www.hirten.com/the-pipe-organ-on-film/ The Abominable Dr. Phibes is an absolute classic.
- adql 4y ago
  * Warhammer 40k Mechanicus OST - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsX9WUdYnU&list=PLnSG0OA5vYnTLQ77f5EmLoW52vIX5jAAK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsX9WUdYnU&list=PLnSG0OA5vY... * A bit on that on IXION one by same author https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTXyUERugQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTXyUERugQ althought more on synth side Also kinda many tracks by organ's tiny brother, hammond/tonehweel organs seen plenty of use for the obvious reason of being portable.
- tzs 4y ago
  Theme from Rollerball [1]? [1] Yes, I know it is Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, but cptcobalt said "name" not "recognize", and while a vast majority have probably heard Toccata and Fugue in D Minor I'd guess most of them don't know that is its name. They will name it after somewhere they heard it used. Similar to Strauss' Also sprach Zarathustra. Everyone has heard it but I bet most people would name it as the theme from 2001: A Space Odyssey.
- wl 4y ago
  Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 https://youtu.be/eW-7S9fjyfU?t=33 https://youtu.be/eW-7S9fjyfU?t=33
- tgv 4y ago
  Well, if you like classical music ... there are some organ concertos. There's e.g. a modern-ish one by Poulenc (but melodic, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFsBNAmCd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFsBNAmCd0), and a romantic one by Saint-Saens (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GrO47WJKTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GrO47WJKTI), and there are baroque organ concertos by Handel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNUsN0Kh3A&list=OLAK5uy_k1uG2eAAArt43lTUMjxdMX4oD1Z2zAMk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNUsN0Kh3A&list=OLAK5uy_k1u...).
- ginko 4y ago
  There's of course In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfpn3wHoNGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfpn3wHoNGA Plenty of other stuff if you look for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKVJt39mFUA&list=OLAK5uy_mTEMbywwK9gpqJ0-t2ra4WIzd8Ot3YLog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKVJt39mFUA&list=OLAK5uy_mTE... Not to mention the tons and tons of secular Classical music, particular from the Baroque era like Händel's organ concertos.
  - recursive 4y ago
    In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida definitely doesn't have a pipe organ. It's a vox or farfisa.
    - toast0 4y ago
      Sounds pretty nice on a church organ though; in high school, I played in the orchestra for honors district graduation at the Crystal Cathedral[1], and the organist would play some riffs during rehearsal. [1] Now renamed as the Christ Cathedral, I assume it's still amazingly hot and stuffy when the sun comes out, ugh, what a terrible venue. :P
    - fipar 4y ago
      Yup, it seems that was a Vox Continental: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Continental https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vox_Continental
- _a_a_a_ 4y ago
  Rollerball.
- booknotefinder 4y ago
  Kali Malone’s “The Sacrificial Code” is my favorite musical find of the last year, and is entirely on pipe organ. Very mysterious and meditative. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpZqFa0Qiro https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpZqFa0Qiro For a midcentury, modal, classical bent, I love the music of Rayner Brown, who was a church organist in Pasadena. Recordings are rare but worth it to track down. There are a few good examples on YouTube; here’s one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xL8p-MuwzDY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xL8p-MuwzDY In that same vein, Leo Sowerby: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9O55UTNhHk4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9O55UTNhHk4
- jgraham 4y ago
  Anna von Hausswolff [1] performs "pop" music on the organ. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_von_Hausswolff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_von_Hausswolff
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    On that note: Barbara Dennerlein.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  I think that's just because it is recent. But there is plenty more.
- balfirevic 4y ago
  > Basically, the exception which proves the rule. Exception can only weaken the rule, although it might still statistically hold well enough to be called a rule.

PathOfEclipse 4y ago

As an amateur pianist trying to learn organ specifically to play "drab" church hymns, I can say that while I admire the complexity and scope of the organ, At the same time, I don't find the organ particularly interesting musically. I just don't think it "sounds" great. I think this explains the lack of popularity of organ more than anything else. In my free time, I would much rather listen to piano music than organ music. I remember even recently finding a new pianist I liked who also played the organ, and I simply didn't like his organ tracks. > You've basically got make friends with a church music director to let you play theirs No one is stopping you or any other secular organization from building your own organs. It seems weird to complain that churches were the only organizations willing to spend the money to build and maintain organs. If anything, you should be grateful they invested the resources in the first place. Without these churches, is it not possible the organ would be virtually extinct at this point?

IanCal 4y ago
> No one is stopping you or any other secular organization from building your own organs. It seems weird to complain that churches were the only organizations willing to spend the money to build and maintain organs. If anything, you should be grateful they invested the resources in the first place. Without these churches, is it not possible the organ would be virtually extinct at this point? I think its reasonable to be both happy these things exist at all, and are available to some for free rather than in extremely expensive private collections, while also lamenting the long history of exclusionary practices of the places these things exist. We can easily take this to an extreme as an analogy where it would seem more reasonable to you to hear the complaint. The world isn't perfect, and as strong as the desire is to reduce things to a "good" or a "bad" the real world comes with confusing good and bad points that we don't have to average out into a final score.
- PathOfEclipse 4y ago
  > While also lamenting the long history of exclusionary practices of the places these things exist. Can you go into more detail as to these exclusionary practices? All organizations, all things really, are defined by both what they include and what they exclude. Nothing is fully inclusive, else that thing would have no meaning! To be more concrete, How, were churches more exclusionary than other private or civic organizations of their times? When we judge the history of something, we really need to judge it in proper context, including by comparing to the society at large within the same time frame. On the whole, Christianity can be argued to be one of the most inclusive religions ever. It would have to be, else it couldn't have spread across the world like it did! > The world isn't perfect, and as strong as the desire is to reduce things to a "good" or a "bad" the real world comes with confusing good and bad points that we don't have to average out into a final score. I'm not sure what this sentence is supposed to be conveying, really. It's point is far too banal to be a nugget of wisdom. It's more like a clump of dirt of wisdom! The world isn't perfect? Thanks for the reminder! But we all have a choice as to how we interpret our world, and I'm suggesting that the primary emotion or feeling an organist should have towards churches is one of gratitude, at least while we're staying on topic and talking about organs.

adql 4y ago

> It's a self-reinforcing negative feedback loop that gatekeeps its wider use. I'm pretty sure there is no loop here, just "you need that much money to play". Not exactly something easy to fit in the house either > (Yes, sample libraries work, but they're just intermediate representations of a full console with multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers, reverberant room, etc.) From what I heard simulated ones get pretty close

bluGill 4y ago

There is a small group of people who have built their own console with "multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers". I've been meaning to do that myself, but time is lacking. With software and good speakers you can probably get the reverberant room as well, though to my knowledge this hasn't been done yet.

actually_a_dog 4y ago
Yeah, it really does seem like you can bodge something like this together with reasonable fidelity out of off the shelf stuff, starting with 3-4 synthesizer keyboards and a few pedals. Of course, that's no small expense right there already, and I'm sure this is one of those things that can get arbitrarily expensive as well, depending on that level of fidelity you're after.
squidbot 4y ago
There's a lot of people using Hauptwerk (virtual organ) for this and assembling their own consoles. Here is an organist on YouTube who shows his whole build process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UtzLlfwJ5w&list=PLUL_VC1ItBk8xIGaCCGCqtnVeouEXYG-D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UtzLlfwJ5w&list=PLUL_VC1ItB...

mh7 4y ago

I don't see a way around that - Organs are inherently rare because of their size, cost, locations and maintenance requirements. Unless someone finds a way of scaling up production and/or reducing the cost, you're not gonna see organs popping up everywhere, hence limited access.

jfk13 4y ago

This being Hacker News, you could consider Knuth's approach: have one built for your home. https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/organ.html https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/organ.html

dang 4y ago
Alan Kay too I think! "Play it grand"
mustacheemperor 4y ago
Or the similar approach of the guy from This Museum is Not Obsolete, buy an entire Church organ secondhand and retrofit it into your home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGr3J_LZaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGr3J_LZaE
- jacquesm 4y ago
  That's another level entirely :) Wow...

darreninthenet 4y ago

I don't want to be "that guy" but a mate of mine is the music director is in his local church here in the UK, plays the organ and piano, is mostly self taught and is also gay... he's even going to be teaching me to play the organ later on this year (and I'm joining his choir for a bit of fun... he also knows I'm not religious at all and in his own words "faith is not a requirement") All I'm saying is you just need to find the right church and person... most people will happily share their passions with equally passionate beginners, and churches are crying out for organ players, they are a dying breed.

tigerlily 4y ago
It's not even weird and I'm on the other side of the world. I know at least one gay organist in my town, and over half my local church choir are unbelievers. Most do it for the repertoire and keeping their pipes in good nick for their real passion: musical theatre.
- conductr 4y ago
  Also here to say "queer self-taught musician" describes every church music director I've ever known (3)
  - thinkmcfly 4y ago
    I'm not gonna brush off the idea that it's tough as a gay person or someone who thinks gay people have the right to exist to get in with a crowd that often thinks lgtbq people deserve to die
jtbayly 4y ago
Gay organists are common enough to be a trope.

allthetime 4y ago

In a way, the entire room is the instrument. How cool is that.

tgv 4y ago

I've got a second hand organ (trademark "Content", but there are more) at home with two manuals and (almost full) pedal. They're not expensive. There are three and four manual versions too. More than good enough to learn and practice. And no mistake: professional organists use these too, since practicing at a real organ is hard for them, too. Many (smaller) churches use similar organs instead of pipe organs, because of the economics. > they're just intermediate representations of a full console with multiple manuals, pedalboard, couplers, reverberant room They're near perfect recordings with all the features, e.g. https://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/organs/netherlands/rotterdam-laurenskerk-main-organ.html https://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/organs/netherlands/rotterdam... If you want to hear what people play on their home setup: https://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/front https://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/front

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

temporarara 4y ago

Hey, just contact your local church music director. You don't even have to become close friends, just explain politely that you would be super grateful to have access to organs. Most of the time things can be arranged if you or the music director aren't obnoxius persons. Being a queer or self-taught musician with no degree is of no interest for anyone involved in this kind of arrangement. I'd assume not being a member of the said church is the biggest obstacle you can reasonably have here, and it can be non-issue too, especially if you are not hoping to instantly gain regular access. Don't be an ass about your lack of religion and hope that they are not an ass about having a religion. I know a few music directors in churches and they are definitely not very religious and it's mostly just a job for them and they are always eager to talk about organs to everyone interested, of course things vary a lot. One must also understand that giving access to expensive instrument that isn't even their own like organs (especially unsupervised) requires high trust and sometimes it's just too much to ask even if you are a lifelong member of the said church. But asking is cheap, don't hesitate to contact your local church music director(s) if you are seriously interested.

GeompMankle 4y ago

If you are in the states and having trouble getting access to church organs, find your local theatre organ club or ATOS chapter. Most of them have some form of access to theatre pipe organs and if you learn on a theatre organ you will be able to transition to a less diverse and more refined beast like a church instrument. It also helps to not be in a high cost of living area. The lower the cost of living, the lower the cost of auditorium space. The lower the cost of auditorium space, the easier it is to get access to organs (to a point).

jacquesm 4y ago

Have a look at the high end electronic organs, they are pretty good (and also pretty expensive, but still a small fraction of what the real thing would cost). Mixtuur, Johannus, van der Poel and quite a few others will give you the opportunity to play and practice to your hearts content and typically a 50 euro donation to the church will get you a 1/2 hour (sometimes more) to play on the real thing if and when you feel you are ready for that (and if you're really good they might get you to become their stand-in organist). On the cheap end: you can build your own, which is what I did, I converted a really old analogue organ that I bought for next to nothing into a sample based organ running Grand Orgue, it's not quite Hauptwerk but it is very good and sounds amazing, much more organ than I'm worthy of. Total cost: about 500 euros.

martinjacobd 4y ago

If you're in the US, you may want to try to find an episcopal church. They seem to be liturgically conservative enough to still have organs but are generally socially liberal enough to be more accepting. Ymmv, obviously. But I will say that personally in years of playing the organ and asking random churches (including conservative ones) if I could borrow their organs on a quiet weekday, my bisexuality has never come up. And I didn't have to be friends with the choir director either. Once, I attended one Mass and just went up to him afterwards to thank him for playing (it was beautiful) and ask if I could ever practice with it. I know it's different from many places as I'm in a big city, but at least four organists whom I've known personally are gay. Many churches don't even require you to be religious even to be employed to play the organ there. Randomly on an airplane, I spoke with an atheist music professor who was choir director/organist at a congregationalist church. They didn't seem to care. So I doubt it'd be a big deal if you just want to practice. The choir director at my current (liberal) parish never takes Communion--I don't know if he is personally religious one way or the other, but it seems to be little more than a job to him. Also, you should try to find some churches where there is more than just "drab church hymns." 20th and even 21st century voluntaries, anthems, and choral preludes are alive and well in certain segments of Christendom. See for instance the churches that Bálint Karosi plays in. I doubt you'd describe his music as "drab." My parish runs the gamut from Palestrina to something from the 20th century at least every Sunday. Just my 2 cents.

AlexTWithBeard 4y ago
I once asked a church choir director: how many people in a typical choir do really believe in god. His answer was: zero. As for the priest - he said - it's more like a coin flip: some of them are still religious.
- jacobmartin 4y ago
  Triply so if the choir is a professional choir. It's a job. They don't ask you the Creed before you audition.

DontchaKnowit 4y ago

I mean I wouldnt look at this like organs are somehow gatekept : theyre just fucking expensive so you have to get in with the institutions that own them to be able to play em.

topaz0 4y ago

Calling the organ rep "drab church hymns" is an unfortunately common misunderstanding. Both because the hymns can be beautiful and varied (both in compositional and performance style -- registration, improvised counterpoint, etc), and because there is a lot more beyond hymns: hundreds of years worth of preludes and fugues, toccatas, concerti, organ symphonies, and various other forms. Most of the placed I've lived, I've been able to find a nearby church that does a (secular) concert/recital series that often features the organ. Try finding one of those if you are interested. As for getting access to an instrument, I second others who have replied to you: many of the organists I've encountered were queer in some way or other (though mostly gay men by far), and the rest of them were well aware and understanding that many of their peers and teachers were gay. I think if you reach out to a church organist they will likely be understanding and helpful.

sambapa 4y ago

There is this thing called "Organteq". It's made by mad scientists (well, mathematicians and engineers) from France and is based on physical modelling. Look it up, it's great!

elihu 4y ago
Also Hauptwerk, or if you prefer something open source there's GrandOrgue https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue https://github.com/GrandOrgue/grandorgue
jacquesm 4y ago
Oh super I did not realize they have a linux version of Organteq, I will definitely have to try that. I've used Grand Orgue so far and that works quite well, but I am a very happy user of Pianoteq (you can guess what that does) and Modartt has definitely raised the bar there, so I'm curious what they can do with Organs (arguably: easier to model in theory but probably a lot harder in practice).

dylan604 4y ago

You mean like the best use I've seen being from the Simpsons? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDC1w1ydLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDC1w1ydLI

noyoudumbdolt 4y ago

I bet half the organists at Catholic churches are gay.