4 ms·

Ask HN: Why has eInk technology stalled compared to other display tech?

35 points by lordleft 4y ago

I'm surprised how slow the pace of innovation has been for eInk. Is there something inherent to the technology that makes things like faster refreshed very difficult to realize?

5bolts 4y ago
other than demand? why invest tons of $$ into something when it would take forever to recoup your investment?
schwartzworld 4y ago
My understanding is one company holds the patents, and they control the pricing and the speed of innovation. I don't agree with the other comment that implies a lack of demand. Lots of people would be perfectly happy with an e-ink phone or laptop. I use a Boox tablet, and the slow refreshes are a feature, not a bug, as they keep me from wasting time on Youtube or TikTok like I could with my phone or computer.
- generj 4y ago
  To expand on this, it is really hard to even get data sheets on e-Ink unless you have serious cash and are going to order tens of thousands of units. Unlike LCDs, e-Ink has complicated voltage waveform requirements. The voltage waveforms are what allow partial refreshes and all the other unique benefits of eink - and they are all proprietary. And there aren’t multiple competing manufacturers, so even though some of the key patents have expired we have not seen a renaissance of display modules. The situation has actually gotten better - there are a few modules available now for tinkerers from Pimoroni, Waveshare, and AliExpress. But when LCD modules cost 1/10 the price (particularly for larger displays) it becomes hard to justify e-ink. The largest untapped market for eink is replacing segmented LCD displays for many products. They did not make many inroads because the costs were higher and LCD segmented displays are commodities that even amateurs can order prototypes of for less than $100 with standardized connectors and controllers. E-ink displays were thus only pushed for by aesthetic reasons by product designers.
  - braunboffel 4y ago
    > it is really hard to even get data sheets on e-Ink unless you have serious cash and are going to order tens of thousands of units. What do you mean? You don't have access to these links? https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=e-ink+datasheet https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=e-i... https://www.waveshare.com/w/upload/7/77/1.54inch_e-Paper_Datasheet.pdf https://www.waveshare.com/w/upload/7/77/1.54inch_e-Paper_Dat... https://www.good-display.com/companyfile/1/ https://www.good-display.com/companyfile/1/ https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps65186.pdf?ts=1673544971171&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps65186.pdf?ts=1673544971...
- warrenm 4y ago
  I've been debating getting an eInk tablet/laptop for a while What do you like about the Boox the most? Which model do you have?
  - schwartzworld 4y ago
    I have the Note3. I mainly use it as an eReader. The large size is really comfortable for reading, including PDFs which were unreadable on my old Kindle. Since it has Chrome, I often use it to read HN, especially long-form articles. The stylus is pretty good for note-taking but I don't take notes. It's probably a little pricey for just an e-reader, but I use it a _lot_ so I think it's fine.
  - christkv 4y ago
    There is the new Lenovo thinkpad twist that is coming out with dual OLED and Color Eink display.
glintik 4y ago
My regrets abouts current eEnk readers: 1) Too heavy(for 10”) - 400 grams and more. Too wide borders. Still 2 cm on Kindle Oasis! 2) Low level of UX, compared with modern tablets - slow screen refresh, touch events comfort far away from tablets. 3) Too much of unneeded features. Who needs audio player or web browser on reader? Invest your time in technology inprovements! Looks like even Amazon lost interest for ereaders R&D. City needs new hero.
- Tagbert 4y ago
  I would say that the wide borders/bezels are needed for handheld devices larger than your hand. You can get by without bezels for a phone that fits within the palm of your hand but a tablet or e-reader needs something to hold onto. Having the audio player is for audiobooks and it makes sense to include those in a book device. It doesn't detract from the rest of the reader. The web browser is mainly there to connect to the books stores so you can buy more books. It's not really intended for general web browsing. The main thing keeping Amazon and others investing more in e-readers is the limited market. Some of us appreciate a light, low cost, dedicated device that is focused on the reading process, but that is a minority market. Most people just want to use one device for everything and don't care if it is less suited to reading as long as it is fast, colorful and they don't need another device.
  - filoleg 4y ago
    > I would say that the wide borders/bezels are needed for handheld devices larger than your hand. That's the neat part about the physical shape of Kindle Oasis, the bezels aren't needed. It is assymetrical and is meant for holding in one hand. One side has a large bezel with buttons and a bump on the back for a good grip, and the opposite side (as well as the top and the bottom) have that aforementioned 2cm bezel. With that design, you can totally get rid of all those 2cm bezels with zero ergonomics loss.
- Shorel 4y ago
  My Pocketbook has borders that are 1 cm or less. May be only 9 mm. Except in the bottom border, where it has four buttons.
spot5010 4y ago
There’s a great tech altar episode that dives into this: https://youtu.be/8Xr9X6cbQ68 https://youtu.be/8Xr9X6cbQ68
nigrioid 4y ago
It's too bad Pixel Qi displays never got popular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi
- alexvoda 4y ago
  Same for Mirasol and the other non-emissive display technologies.
jti107 4y ago
what do u mean by stalled? they released color eink and are planning to release next gen color panels, faster refresh rate panels and foldable displays. if you’re willing to pay for it you can get 25-40 in eink monitors. considering the small market for eink I think they are innovating
rg111 4y ago
This video [0][1] (made two weeks ago) will answer your question and go beyond. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34143174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34143174 [1]: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8Xr9X6cbQ68 https://youtube.com/watch?v=8Xr9X6cbQ68
birdymcbird 4y ago
only tried amazon kindles. bought one with a keyboard when me much younger. was gifted a new model last year. it same thing. battery life very good but it so slow. new model has menu screen like android.
meremortals 4y ago
Qualcomm Mirasol was so ahead of its time (colorful, excellent battery life), but never really took off, and Apple ended up acquiring it https://appleinsider.com/articles/15/12/15/apple-has-taken-over-qualcomms-imod-mirasol-display-lab-in-taiwan https://appleinsider.com/articles/15/12/15/apple-has-taken-o...
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
I have heard the patent theory, but as an alternative: TV and then gaming is the big driver. That's why laptops went to 16:9 ratios and what has pushed displays through multiple performance barriers. Reading is niche, though I expect some improvement now that it's got cheap enough for shelf signage use cases.

35 points by lordleft 4y ago

I'm surprised how slow the pace of innovation has been for eInk. Is there something inherent to the technology that makes things like faster refreshed very difficult to realize?

5bolts 4y ago

other than demand? why invest tons of $$ into something when it would take forever to recoup your investment?

schwartzworld 4y ago

My understanding is one company holds the patents, and they control the pricing and the speed of innovation. I don't agree with the other comment that implies a lack of demand. Lots of people would be perfectly happy with an e-ink phone or laptop. I use a Boox tablet, and the slow refreshes are a feature, not a bug, as they keep me from wasting time on Youtube or TikTok like I could with my phone or computer.

generj 4y ago
To expand on this, it is really hard to even get data sheets on e-Ink unless you have serious cash and are going to order tens of thousands of units. Unlike LCDs, e-Ink has complicated voltage waveform requirements. The voltage waveforms are what allow partial refreshes and all the other unique benefits of eink - and they are all proprietary. And there aren’t multiple competing manufacturers, so even though some of the key patents have expired we have not seen a renaissance of display modules. The situation has actually gotten better - there are a few modules available now for tinkerers from Pimoroni, Waveshare, and AliExpress. But when LCD modules cost 1/10 the price (particularly for larger displays) it becomes hard to justify e-ink. The largest untapped market for eink is replacing segmented LCD displays for many products. They did not make many inroads because the costs were higher and LCD segmented displays are commodities that even amateurs can order prototypes of for less than $100 with standardized connectors and controllers. E-ink displays were thus only pushed for by aesthetic reasons by product designers.
- braunboffel 4y ago
  > it is really hard to even get data sheets on e-Ink unless you have serious cash and are going to order tens of thousands of units. What do you mean? You don't have access to these links? https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=e-ink+datasheet https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=e-i... https://www.waveshare.com/w/upload/7/77/1.54inch_e-Paper_Datasheet.pdf https://www.waveshare.com/w/upload/7/77/1.54inch_e-Paper_Dat... https://www.good-display.com/companyfile/1/ https://www.good-display.com/companyfile/1/ https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps65186.pdf?ts=1673544971171&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps65186.pdf?ts=1673544971...
warrenm 4y ago
I've been debating getting an eInk tablet/laptop for a while What do you like about the Boox the most? Which model do you have?
- schwartzworld 4y ago
  I have the Note3. I mainly use it as an eReader. The large size is really comfortable for reading, including PDFs which were unreadable on my old Kindle. Since it has Chrome, I often use it to read HN, especially long-form articles. The stylus is pretty good for note-taking but I don't take notes. It's probably a little pricey for just an e-reader, but I use it a _lot_ so I think it's fine.
- christkv 4y ago
  There is the new Lenovo thinkpad twist that is coming out with dual OLED and Color Eink display.

glintik 4y ago

My regrets abouts current eEnk readers: 1) Too heavy(for 10”) - 400 grams and more. Too wide borders. Still 2 cm on Kindle Oasis! 2) Low level of UX, compared with modern tablets - slow screen refresh, touch events comfort far away from tablets. 3) Too much of unneeded features. Who needs audio player or web browser on reader? Invest your time in technology inprovements! Looks like even Amazon lost interest for ereaders R&D. City needs new hero.

Tagbert 4y ago
I would say that the wide borders/bezels are needed for handheld devices larger than your hand. You can get by without bezels for a phone that fits within the palm of your hand but a tablet or e-reader needs something to hold onto. Having the audio player is for audiobooks and it makes sense to include those in a book device. It doesn't detract from the rest of the reader. The web browser is mainly there to connect to the books stores so you can buy more books. It's not really intended for general web browsing. The main thing keeping Amazon and others investing more in e-readers is the limited market. Some of us appreciate a light, low cost, dedicated device that is focused on the reading process, but that is a minority market. Most people just want to use one device for everything and don't care if it is less suited to reading as long as it is fast, colorful and they don't need another device.
- filoleg 4y ago
  > I would say that the wide borders/bezels are needed for handheld devices larger than your hand. That's the neat part about the physical shape of Kindle Oasis, the bezels aren't needed. It is assymetrical and is meant for holding in one hand. One side has a large bezel with buttons and a bump on the back for a good grip, and the opposite side (as well as the top and the bottom) have that aforementioned 2cm bezel. With that design, you can totally get rid of all those 2cm bezels with zero ergonomics loss.
Shorel 4y ago
My Pocketbook has borders that are 1 cm or less. May be only 9 mm. Except in the bottom border, where it has four buttons.

spot5010 4y ago

There’s a great tech altar episode that dives into this: https://youtu.be/8Xr9X6cbQ68 https://youtu.be/8Xr9X6cbQ68

nigrioid 4y ago

It's too bad Pixel Qi displays never got popular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi

alexvoda 4y ago
Same for Mirasol and the other non-emissive display technologies.

jti107 4y ago

what do u mean by stalled? they released color eink and are planning to release next gen color panels, faster refresh rate panels and foldable displays. if you’re willing to pay for it you can get 25-40 in eink monitors. considering the small market for eink I think they are innovating

rg111 4y ago

This video [0][1] (made two weeks ago) will answer your question and go beyond. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34143174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34143174 [1]: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8Xr9X6cbQ68 https://youtube.com/watch?v=8Xr9X6cbQ68

birdymcbird 4y ago

only tried amazon kindles. bought one with a keyboard when me much younger. was gifted a new model last year. it same thing. battery life very good but it so slow. new model has menu screen like android.

meremortals 4y ago

Qualcomm Mirasol was so ahead of its time (colorful, excellent battery life), but never really took off, and Apple ended up acquiring it https://appleinsider.com/articles/15/12/15/apple-has-taken-over-qualcomms-imod-mirasol-display-lab-in-taiwan https://appleinsider.com/articles/15/12/15/apple-has-taken-o...

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

I have heard the patent theory, but as an alternative: TV and then gaming is the big driver. That's why laptops went to 16:9 ratios and what has pushed displays through multiple performance barriers. Reading is niche, though I expect some improvement now that it's got cheap enough for shelf signage use cases.